Hyrbrid Realities Lab Audio Recording Week 2 Session 3

The speaker is discussing the issue of the "ancientification" of the internet and how it affects artists' websites and social media presence. They highlight the problems with current artist websites and the reliance on platforms like Instagram. The speaker shares an example of a well-designed academic website and discusses the importance of user-friendliness and clear presentation of work. They then open the floor for discussion on how attendees view each other's websites and social media presence. It's recording, so we're good to go. Yeah, we have, on my screen, it's still loading, so. Yeah, me too. Okay, but we do have someone new here, Lucilia. If you'd like to introduce yourself, if you feel comfortable doing that. If not, that's okay as well. Let's see. Is it glitching for anybody else? Yeah, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 users with the spinning cube. I wonder if it's a Discord issue. Me too, Chris. Yeah, yeah, I have. On my screen, I can only see Edonia, Berto, and you. Oh, really? We might just, unless you want to... I'll just go out and come back in again. Yeah. It's worked pretty well up till now, hasn't it? Yeah, let's... Where is... Matthew, can you hear us? Yeah, yeah. I can hear you all. I can see most people. Really? We need a reboot for a reason. Can you jump out and come back in, do you think? Yeah, let's do it. Let's see what happens to Chris. That's a little bit better. We've lost Chris, though. That's better. Can you guys see and hear us? Yes. Could you see and hear us before? Yes. Oh, interesting. I think it was better now. Lucilia, did you introduce yourself? I'm sorry if it got cut off. Can't hear you well, then. You might be better off without your Bluetooth. Did you do it directly into your phone? Who, me? No, no. Chris, go on, carry on. Yes, carry on. If it's cool, we'll jump right into the discussion. And then we can backpedal later. Sorry about that. I don't know what... The eclipse is coming soon, you know? At least in America. And I'm pretty sure that's, you know, fucking with everything. It's going to hit where I am really good. So any issues... Definitely, yeah. Yeah, yeah, no. But welcome. And welcome to Lucilia, the new member. So, yeah, we're... This is our first discussion session. So these are designed just as, like, a conversation about, you know, different topics related to our work. It might be directly related to what we're working on with New Art City or, like, our practice in general. But it doesn't necessarily have to be part of what we wanted to do with these discussion groups that were just to kind of, like, think through different topics that affect us as artists while dealing with, you know, digital and virtual space. So today the kind of theme is about, you know, our identity in digital spaces. So, like, thinking especially about our social medias and our websites. Artist websites and websites and, like, building websites is something that I'm kind of, like, beginning to get interested in, but I've, like, long been kind of obsessed with artist websites and, like, finding good artist websites. Because a lot of artist websites are very bad, right? Like, the kind of status quo for so long for artist websites has been, you know, not very good. And it's even worse for academics. I don't know if any of you spend time looking at, like, different academics' websites, but it's, yeah, there's a lot of shit, basically. So something that I've personally been interested in recently is this idea of the n-shitification of the Internet. Is anyone familiar with this term? It's from Cody Doctorow. So, like, the idea of the n-shitification of the Internet is, you know, kind of as it sounds, that the Internet has become shittier over time. And it usually – I'm going to share a link to an article in a little bit, but n-shitification usually refers to, like, you know, bigger sort of structures like Instagram or TikTok, where they first hook users with a lot of free stuff. Then they block off a lot of things and make you pay. And then once you start paying, they make things shitty still, even though you've technically paid in. So, like, a good example of this would, say, be, like, you know, for us streaming websites, right? Like, streaming websites across the board have gotten much worse over time. They went from being something you could kind of pay into and have no ads and have unlimited access to having different tiers of access and things like that, right? So how does this come back to artists' websites? Well, there's two things, right? First is that a lot of artists' websites, just in general, are very unusable. Like, they're built in a very unusable way or in a way that is not productive for our means, right? And then, two, we rely on a lot of these larger platforms like Cargo or like Wix or WordPress, things of that nature, to build their websites, to actually have, like, to pay in to have a physical or a digital presence. And even if, you know, you're using your Instagram as your portfolio and as your main sort of connector to digital space as an artist, you know, you're relying on this platform, right, with limitations and also with, especially as we're seeing lately, like particularly strong sensors and things like that. So today what I want to think about is all of how we appear online as it is right now. So, you know, a big part of this course, right, a big part of this program, is I think fighting against, like, that ancientification of the Internet, right? So, like, New York City, I don't know the developers super well, but I've listened to, like, talks with Don and things like that, and he kind of talks sort of specifically about this one, this issue, right, where New York City is supposed to be super usable and super accessible as sort of a reaction to, you know, how shitty virtual gallery space is, right, and how shitty it is to, like, show in sort of digital spaces, right, as it is. Last week when we had the talk with Soot, I think Soot is a great example of fighting against the ancientification of the Internet, right, because Soot, like he was saying, they want to make things more user-friendly with, you know, artists and artworks in mind. So I think that a large part of the course, you know, a large part of this intensive is just fighting against that, like, ancientification, right, of, like, how do we show up in a digital or virtual space and, like, A, show our work, like, A, like, actually sell ourselves, for lack of a better word, show what we're about, show our work, but then, you know, B, how do we create space or where do we find space that is not, you know, totally shit, you know? So, you know, again, a big issue for all of us right now is probably, like, Instagram. I don't know if we can all agree that Instagram is getting worse on the user end of things, but, you know, how does that affect us as artists? How do we work around that? You know, is the alternative to go offline, have no social media presence, give up business cards, or is there, you know, things that we can do? And obviously, you know, this course is about the things that we can do. So how do you all look at each other's websites and Instagrams? This should be, like, a pretty collaborative session, right, like, just kind of around this theme, right? And I was curious if any of you looked at others' websites, Instagrams, and felt it was particular, like, felt there was one that stood out that you liked or if you wanted to talk about your own sort of, like, social media or website and, you know, whether you feel good about it or, you know, however you feel about it. So I'm going to kind of open up the floor right now that, yeah, if anybody saw anybody else's sort of website, Instagram, social media, that they liked if you want to talk about it right now. And it's okay if not. I have some examples here, too. Actually, maybe I can start if that's cool. Is that cool with everyone? Okay. Sweet. So for me, as I said, I'm obsessed with artists' websites and Instagrams. I'm obsessed with how you can sell yourself online and how we can do that better and questioning why things are so bad. So, like I was saying earlier, one particular area where, you know, things are really bad is, like, academics' websites. So I want to show you an example of a website that I found of an academic that's, like, really good, it's really user-friendly, and it really kind of shows what this person does, what their work is, and archives it super well. So I'm going to share my screen now that I have it up. Everyone see my screen? Cool. All right. So this is Catherine Guinness. I don't know this person, but I really like her work. I went through a period last year where I was applying for PhDs where I was just sort of looking up different academics to see, like, who, you know, who might I want to work with in the programs that I'm looking at, right? And this kind of issue that I kept coming across was that academics and artists' websites are really bad, and it's really hard to find work, and it's really hard to figure out what people are about. And this one stood out to me, right? I'm actually not sure what it was designed on, though we can totally look that up pretty easily. It does kind of look like a cargo site. I thought that this was great because it gives a bio of what she does. It's very clear, you know, like who she is, where she's placed, and then it has, you know, all of her projects, writings, and things. And I like the way that she puts that, projects, writings, and things, because, like, a big issue I find on a lot of websites right now is that, you know, people sort of categorize things too much. She also has this meme here from CyborgASM. Does anyone follow CyborgASM on Instagram? CyborgASM is really great, and she actually works with SUTnow, which is, like, a weird connection. It's, like, a meme page about, like, media theory and things. So when I found this website, I was like, this is fucking great. Every academic's website should look like this. And I got really excited, right, because it's super user-friendly. There's not a lot, and, you know, you have, like, I want to find her Instagram. Cool, it's right there. I want to email her. Cool, it's right there. I might sound a little crazy, but I fell in love with this website. And there's actually another academic who has the same exact website. They work together, so I imagine that they developed it together. Same thing. So when I saw this site, I was sort of like, why does this stick out when others don't? Like, what is this person kind of doing, or what are these people doing? So now we're looking at Graham Bulmers. And to me, there is one sort of big thing that stood out, right, about this site, and it was that it was so simple. It felt like – it didn't feel like, you know, I think Web 1.0 or Web 1.0, Web 2.0, Web 3.0. Are we all familiar with those terms, the idea of Web 1.0? Yeah. So Web 1.0 is like sort of, you know, your GeoCities websites. The older version, Web 2.0, is like what we're kind of still in, which is where the Internet is built around platforms, mostly large platforms. And Web 3.0 is – nobody seems to know exactly what Web 3.0 is, so we won't even worry about it. But an issue of like wherever we are on that spectrum, right, a lot of people say we're heading towards this thing like Web 3.0, and things will be behind the blockchain and more secretive or whatever. An issue with where we're at right now is that the Internet is suffering from an identity crisis all over the place, right, where you can do a lot of things with a website. You can do a lot of things with social media, but you can't do a lot of things well. For me, when I was looking at this website, Grant Bulmer's and Catherine Guinness', what I immediately noticed was just how easy it was, right, like how accessible they were and how plain it was. It felt like going back to Web 1.0, but with, you know, the capabilities of Web 2.0. So, yeah, Dan confirmed that this was built on cargo. Has anyone used cargo to build their website or anything like that? Okay, cool. Oh, sweet. Okay, sweet. Would you mind if I pulled up your website? Would you be comfortable with that? Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, it's no problem. Mine is super simple. Cool. Alexa, just real quick, I thought your website was so crazy and cool. It is really simple, but, like, just especially just even, like, the little rippling effect that you get right away, I don't know, it just really drew me in, like, did a lot, wanted to say. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. Do you remind me of the name? Sorry. It's just vijoles.art. Okay, cool. Yeah, actually, that ripple effect is the reason I haven't quit cargo, because I actually don't think cargo is very user-friendly at all, and I've, like, banged my head against the wall so often trying to do simple things, but also I don't know, like, CSS editing, and I have to, like, look up hashtags and use chat GPT to, like, do simple, help me figure out simple coding for glows and stuff, but I think you can do a lot of really cool stuff with their sort of built-in. Yeah, it's super simple. It's just scroll down. I have a bio page and then a works page. I recently redesigned it, I would say, about a month or two ago. It used to be I feel a lot more cluttered and a lot more I was trying to do too much, I think, all at once, but I just simplified it way, way down, and then so I just have my landing page, my bio page, and my little works page, and the backgrounds are all a series of 3D renders I did, like, a year or two ago, and I just really like sort of, what's the word, the continuity, how I could just have a kind of theme flowing through the backgrounds, and, yeah, that's my site. This is from a lot of website building. I find Cargo really unintuitive. It's so annoying to build on, but the effects and the stuff I think you can make happen, I think the possibility, the hope and the possibility of it is what kept me going and not return to, like, Squarespace or Wix because those I feel, I don't know how to make a Squarespace site not look very corporate and sort of very, very, like, corporate brandy looking, so I've struggled on through Cargo. You're right to do that, I think, because, you know, I think Cargo is built for artists and creatives, whereas I think Squarespace is built for people who want to sell products, photography or whatever those things are, and it has, you know, a certain look and feel to it. It's hard to escape unless you really are good at coding, but you've done a great job. I'm always tempted in by Cargo sites. I think some of them look so funky and really quirky. Yeah, that's what got me at first. They have this one template where it's a desktop, and then the landing page is a bunch of folders and stuff, and that template is super, super cool, and you can do a lot with it. But, yeah, for mine, again, I just kept it super simple. I tried to put the focus on the art because I was trying to do a lot of, like, funky links and sub menus and stuff before, and I just, it was very cluttered, and I, again, I just was like, what do they need to see? These people need to see my work, so here's my work. And I make a lot of renders that are, like, focused on, like, stylized STEM characters, and so I figured I would put them at the forefront. No, this is, like, so this is a great, I'm happy that we brought yours up, because this is, like, an amazing example of what I would say is, like, a pretty fucking good artist website right now, right? And, like, so Cargo, right? I did want to talk about, like, the hegemony of Cargo today, right, because, like, it is just everywhere, and it is so easy to use, like, especially for artists. But, yeah, Cargo, I find Cargo kind of interesting in how limited it is. Like, to develop this on Cargo is super interesting, because, you know, this is somewhat simple, but it looks amazing, and that reflection effect. Actually, Matthew uses, Matthew and Lynn use, I think, the same effect, the ripple effect. Yes, ripple effect. Yeah, so it's interesting to me, like, to be using Cargo to build your artist page, right, because it is so readily accessible. Like, you don't need, like, much coding to have it look really good. I'm going to show you another one real quick. This is a super basic site. Like, they don't even pay for the, you know, domain name. This is Clara Hancock, who will be actually at our crit on Thursday, and this is just, like, a really, really, really simple Cargo site with their, this is a link to their SoundCloud, their Arena. Does everyone here use Arena as well? Yeah, Arena. Sweet, sweet. I'm not familiar with Arena. Arena, let me show you Arena real fast. Arena is just, I believe they're actually related to one another. I think Arena and Cargo have some relationship. But Arena is, I have to use my own, sorry. Arena is a way to sort of, like, organize images and links and share them. That's also kind of built for artists. Some people use it as their portfolio. But it kind of looks like this, and you can kind of go through different links on Arena. I find it super useful when doing, like, visual research to use Arena, or visual and sort of conventional research, because you can, like, what we're looking at is an article, but then you can also have, like, screenshots. Yeah, it's a super, it's free. There's, you know, you can pay for different levels, but the base one is free, and it's pretty good. But, yeah, I'm curious what everybody else, because almost everybody here has an artist's website, correct? I know there's, like, a few people that don't. I'm curious to know what you've built yours on. Because, again, like, we're talking about Cargo Heroes Alexis, and Cargo is, like, really cool because, like, it just looks good, right? Like, it just looks good. It looks like an artist's website. Whereas, you know, like you were kind of saying earlier, like a Squarespace website, it's hard to make a Squarespace look like not a Squarespace, you know? Whether or not that's good or bad is, like, a different story. But, yeah, I'm curious what you all have built your websites using. I can go first if you want. So I built mine using Webflow. I hesitated a long time between Cargo and OpenSource solutions. So, I mean, the choice was easily to say that I don't do that. And then I chose Webflow because also I know that Zohar is very good at using it. So it was a way to choose something that I know that will have, like, some help if I'm stuck and some backup thing, someone that could help me with the development. And also I needed something quick and kind of straightforward. I know, I mean, it's not the most graphic website out here. But, I mean, I think it's something where you could find easily and quickly the information, main information about my work. I'm going to pull yours up here as well, if that's cool. Sorry? Is it cool if I pull yours up? Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, sure. Let's see. That's actually curious that Zohar's is on Webflow as well, because I actually wanted to point out Zohar's as, like, a really, you know, really good example of sort of, like, a, you know, like, decent interactivity and things like that. Sorry. I opened it in the wrong tab. Everyone see that now? And, I mean, how do you feel about, like, what you're putting out on the website? Like, do you think you're communicating everything you need? Or, like, do you have issues? Or, yeah, what's your relationship to this site? I mean, I was aiming at developing kind of website as portfolio, like, just showing, showcasing my work. What I did for following the years, and pretty much that's it. Do you like that it's chronological? Sorry? I like that it's chronological. I've seen, like, a lot of artists kind of do that, where, I mean, you know, if you're going to look at your CV, you know, it's going to be chronological. And, like, essentially, your website is, like, an extended CV, right? Or, like, a, you know, a teaser, you know, to your CV. So, I do think the chronological is cool. You might benefit from, have you, do you know about Index? Oh. What is it? It's called Index. Let me see. It's actually, I think it's, I don't know. I think it's, one second here. I'm not finding, I'm going to find it later. But it's actually a way to do what you're doing on your website, but have it be, like, create a tab, basically, that you can then scroll through chronologically. A lot of artists were using it a few years ago because it was open source, but I'm not, I think someone bought it out, because I haven't seen it quite as much. Does anyone know what I'm talking about with Index, or I've seen Index before? It was, yeah, it was, it's not coming up for me here, but it was pretty popular for a little while. But, yeah, thank you, Skander. Does anyone else want to talk about their website? Actually, can I call him Birdo? Because Birdo, I really like your site. Would that be cool, to talk about where yours was developed, how it was developed? Sure. All right, I'll put you on the spot. No, it's all good. I was looking up stuff. So, in the chat, let's see. I've been having troubles with, like, getting video going and stuff like that, which has been so frustrating. I'm just going to turn video off, because this keeps trying to pull up, and I'm going to be on video. But, yeah, I use Squarespace, actually. It's something that I've been thinking about refiguring into something a lot more custom. And this is also with custom, I'm not sure what it's called, but it's something that I've been thinking about. And this is also with custom CSS script and stuff like that. With, like, typefaces that I felt like just kind of embodied kind of what I was going after, from typography from body copy to headline and subheadline and stuff like that. Yeah, sorry for the Squarespace, but this actually doesn't even register that this was a Squarespace site when I was first on it. No, no. I was going to say the same thing. So, in the chat, I'm going to send over some awesome websites that I've – they're not artists that I specifically am, like, inspired by or what have you, but I think they have really interesting approaches to their websites. So, this is one that's super interesting. They use Miro, so more of like a mood board inspiration. And then Florian Spring. I think this is – what he did is all custom script. But, yeah, for mine, it was super simple. I found something that didn't feel too corporate or contrived and just took some custom script to it. Yeah, no, this – you're – again, sorry for the Squarespace hate. But, I mean, do you find, like, because your practice is primarily – or has been primarily in photography, do you find – how do you find Squarespace for that? Because I do think that it is one area where, like – okay, so, like, Alexei, your work is, you know, based within, like, the space that you're in. Like, Alexei, your work is, you know, based within, like, creating 3D, you know, models and things like that. And your website works really well for that. But your – Berto, your website works, like, a little bit better to show your photography. I'm curious about your relationship with that, if you know what I mean. Yeah, I – it's something that I was conscious of. And I think Squarespace is a little bit better for photography. The fact that if you find the right template, that you can display it a little bit better than some other, like, Wix and stuff like that. So, for me, it just worked out better in that regard. Yeah, sweet. I've put everyone else on the spot, so I'm also going to show you my website because I'm actually – I'm only, like, medium happy with it, right? But it is, like, again, an obsession for me. So I've kind of redone mine a few times. I actually just use Wix right now, but I keep mine just to one page with links. And I'm going to be doing, like – I'm going to create a WordPress site soon just because I can kind of, like, customize things a little bit more. But I – when I was, like, redesigning my site – and again, it's not, like, my favorite thing at the moment. There's a lot. I wanted to just, like, you know, give a blurb about who I am and what I do and have links to different things I did because I was thinking that people would be coming to my website just to get, you know, a teaser. Like, just to get, like, a little taste for who Chris is. So I wanted it to be super, you know, super, super simple. So it's just one page. It's a video that I did. It's, like, a, you know, a GIF of a video I did behind it. It's my little character because I use, like, an avatar of this blue guy for, like, everything that I do, which we can talk about at a later date. But when I was making – remaking my website, I was, like, also kind of thinking about the use of it. And this is something that I want to, like, try to open up our discussion to now that we've kind of, like, seen a few examples of do you think in 2024, like, is it a necessity to have a specific website or would, like, an Instagram suffice? You know, almost all of us have a website and an Instagram and things like that. So I'm curious to know what your all thoughts are on it, you know, now that we've, like, seen a few examples, like, if you believe that this is a necessity or what your experience has been. So, yeah. I feel like my take on that – I like that question a lot because I think about this a lot as someone who doesn't have a website yet. I really want to make one, of course. I'd say that you probably don't really need to have a website to be able to market yourself. But with all of the censorship that's happening on social media, and I think it's just, like, becoming more and more like a security thing. Like, you don't have to, but there's just so much more you can do in your own space as opposed to a platform that belongs to someone else. That's all I have to say about that. I just want to make a website. I don't have one yet. Y'all's websites are so sick. Yeah, I think that's a pretty good point. I think 10 years ago, everybody felt like they had to have a website. And then with the sort of advent of social media, it presents itself as an option. But then you are – this is why people are turning to Web 3.0 as a sort of decentralization of these controls and constraints that are put on you as a consumer or a user of these things. You are censored and you are restricted in what you can show, and it's worth considering what those platforms actually do for you. So how do you get around them? What do you do? What are your options? And maybe kind of going back to these more rudimentary, simplistic sort of websites are ways some way around it. I'm not sure necessarily the entire answer, but certainly a way to consider taking back some of that control. I know larger organizations are thinking about decentralization as a way of bringing back that element of control away from these larger corporations and their systems. So it's definitely worth considering. So I'd add that in. I guess I also just had one other comment just about the first website that you showed us, Chris, that you said that you really liked the aesthetic of. And then just like thinking about that and compared to yours, I think the thing that strikes me most about both of them that they maybe have in common is like a sense of irony that I think gets lost. You have the opportunity to work with more in your own website, especially with the sort of Web 1.0 aesthetic. I feel like bringing it back with like a little ironic swing kind of, I don't know, it's just more creative, a lot more freedom and like kind of tongue-in-cheek about how, you know, how a lot of art is just trying to take back our own authority. Maybe you should. Yeah, I mean, even going back, taking it even further back to like GeoCities, like when things were just super open and free and you could crash a computer off a desk, that was phenomenal. A lot of my research right now, like my own personal research, is looking at, so I'm interested in like spirituality and right now I've been investigating these different groups of people who do like spirit channeling. So like Chess Speaks, if anyone knows that, or like RAMSA is like another example. All these like really kind of trippy places, but they were really big on GeoCities. So it's really cool to see all of these like really crazy, the Berkeley Psychic Center had an amazing kind of early GeoCities website and it's been amazing to go back and find like archives and records of these like really early websites. Like you were talking about, Berta, where it was just like there was a freedom because it, you know, it does seem like we've moved somewhat away from that like freedom of the Internet. And kind of on that note, I'm curious to kind of shift gears a little bit away from websites, you know, if we could talk a bit more about like Instagram or social medias in general, which are like the antithesis of right now of like, you know, being able to, you know, generate your own aesthetic. And also, as you know, I'm sure we're all aware, like, you know, possibly more censored than they've ever been. I'm curious. I'm also like in this conversation, I'm also curious to know your experiences with platforms like Instagram as an artist. I'm personally moving away from Instagram. I was an Instagram addict for many years. I love to post stories and I haven't posted a story really in a while and I'm very proud of myself for that. But I've been finding that Instagram has become unusable. Whereas at one point in my career, I felt like I had like it was like a it was sort of the thing that was getting me opportunities or where I was finding opportunities or sharing my work. Yeah, kind of open to you all, like within this conversation about websites, artists' websites, you know, how does your social media play into your sort of digital presence? You're chompy. Very chompy. Yeah, I can't hear you. It's not good. Anyone else wants to jump in? I can say something. For me, it's always been really awkward. It's all been very awkward. I don't like and I don't like posting things. But I didn't have an Instagram until 2020. And then I did a one-year development. It's called the Flaming Fellowship, which is for artists working with moving images. And I was told that maybe it would be good to have it. I didn't have to, but maybe it would be good. And they wanted to tag me. So I said, okay, I'll set that up. And I was feeling really awkward about posting anything. And then now having had this account for the last three, few years, it feels like I got used to it. And if there's something that I have, I will share it there more out of just a way to let people know that I know that I'm doing something. And usually that's the main reason, but I don't like it. It feels like it's due to you. Maybe it's not something that I find particularly fun. It's more like a kind of thing I feel like I'm supposed to do. And it also is true that people do get in contact and say, oh, I saw that you're doing this thing. Sounds interesting. Can you tell me more about it or send me a link? Which otherwise probably wouldn't happen, which I think also ties into this idea of maybe this time we live in, which is a time-space of gas. So especially living in London, people have to work a lot to survive and also live in very small, confined spaces. Most people I know, at least many people I know, including myself, don't have studio spaces. So it's like you can't meet up all the time because you're living more than an hour away often. So this virtual space is a space that is accessible more immediately when the space you physically inhabit with your body is very limited and feels like that space, I would say, for the last 10 years has become increasingly squeezed. So I think for me that all ties together. That's such a brilliant point because thinking personally, when I was at my most addicted to Instagram, I was living in Dublin, a city which famously has this awful housing crisis. And now I live in a place that there isn't really a housing crisis and I'm finding that I can get off of it. But you're right where it is. I know that this is something that Dan is kind of interested in, but the idea of third spaces disappearing within city space or just not even necessarily that a third space, like a cafe or something, is disappearing, but the point that you're getting towards is that people also just don't have time to be going into these other spaces. And Instagram does feel like a common space, especially for artists. I joked recently that I was going to get into smoking cigarettes to quit Instagram. I guess feeds a similar addiction, but I mean, I can do both. Yeah, I'm curious to hear about other people's Instagram experiences because also something that I thought was super interesting that you said was that it is an opportunity garden. I recently had work in Missouri and it was because somebody was able to share my Instagram account and I was able to kind of get in touch with someone via Instagram. And maybe even some of you found this program through Instagram, you know. So, yeah, I'm curious. Yeah, I see. So it's for me more so than. Well, OK, let me put it this way and then maybe like get some other people's sort of view on it. But for me, I don't know that everybody is going to go to my website. Right. Like, I don't know. Like, I can give out a business card. I can send my link. But I do know that somebody like that people will go to my Instagram, that there's for whatever reason that, you know, however our brains work, somebody will go to my Instagram over my website and getting off of Instagram or trying to get off of Instagram or reshaping my relationship to Instagram. I've been thinking about, well, then how am I going to find opportunities? How am I going to show myself? Yeah. And I guess I'm curious to know, like, have people in this group like found opportunities via Instagram? Like, like, what how what role does it play in your practice, basically, as having your your Instagram? Sorry, I'll do one last test. Does it work? Yep. Amazing. OK. Thank you. OK, great. Yeah. Just one thing that I wanted to share. But thank you, Chris. That was you phrased that question really well, because I've had interactions with fellow artists and creatives. And I said personally, I've never really had an opportunity that came from Instagram. I was like, I never had like an exhibition that happened because someone approached me via Instagram. But the thing is, I've exchanged this experience with international people that were not from Luxembourg. And in Luxembourg, it's kind of like this because it's so small. If you know someone, then you get in touch through them and people know each other. And then you get this is how you form connections. It's rarely ever that you find work or an opportunity just through your social media. But this is kind of just how it works in Luxembourg. So I'm also very interested to see if that is just, you know, a small country thing or if if that's actually. Yeah, just generally, because if it is, I feel very relieved to hear that you can actually form connections, not based on Instagram, because I'm also have an addiction to it. And I think it's very, you know, just not healthy to scroll. And I just hope that this is not how we how we connect with people and how we form, you know, healthy relationships and business connections. So, yeah, as Chris said, very happy to hear your experiences with Instagram and if it helps you to get into business. I guess I'll kick off next, but I mean, for me, being in the middle of nowhere, Germany, it's been really good for me. As far as being able to connect with certain collectors and stuff like that, I guess, been rather beneficial, sold pieces through it, connected with people. But now just giving kind of the new algorithm that they've started to implement and all the censorship of it and stuff like that, like I had an image that before I write my Instagram, I had an image of Hoi on and it was just like some BTS of a photo shoot that I was on and it got wiped. It got reported instantly, which there's no duty to do nothing of the sort, but it actually got reported due to censorship. So that right there just kind of told me it's like, yeah, I'm just over it. So right now I'm just trying to figure out what's the best approach is. I love Instagram. I love talking to friends and people, just random people all the time on Instagram, like as a messaging system. But as a platform for the things I want to represent, I don't know if it's right for me anymore. I've noticed a lot of people in my circle started to move back to Tumblr, which I find funny. Love that. I didn't realize it was coming back, but I love that. I thought it was dead too. I thought it was swiped off the face of the earth. David Rudnick, that graphic designer that I sent with the Web3 stuff, even before he had a website, like his website was Tumblr, he refused to be on Instagram. And last time we met, he told me Instagram, he thinks it's a devil and he just wants to teach it how to find dogs for him to view on his explore page because it gives him joy. I was just like, what the fuck? Okay, cool. All right. I guess that's you. That's interesting. I feel like I've been talking a lot, but as far as Instagram goes, that's like all that I've had for a really long time. That's like where all of my practice has been the market for my practice the entire time I've had a practice. And yeah, I think it's been really useful for, I wouldn't say making meaningful connections, but definitely commerce. Like I'm selling, I do most of my sales and things like that and get commissions through Instagram. A second ago, Adonia said something that really struck a nerve about how awkward it kind of feels to use Instagram. And I think that there's some sort of unity that maybe contributes to the addiction that I think creatives can get to that platform. There's like a unity in this cringe factor, this awkwardness of the fact that we are using Instagram at all. And in the United States, I don't know about everywhere else, but in the United States, it's like really effective for selling things. Like you can make a sale connection like super fast. So it's like under late stage capitalism, it's something that I think a lot of creatives get online and then together we shrug. And then we're like, we're in this together. Oh, this all sucks. This is horrible, but we have to do it. And there's like some kind of awkward, cringey, like family aspect to it that keeps us like sucked in. I don't know. Does that resonate with anybody? That's just how I've been feeling. And I also want to get away from that. I'm like excited to hear that Tumblr maybe is having a resurgence. Because like ethically, that's just seems so predatory, which is something I'm really sensitive to becoming more and more sensitive to, especially as a creative. Like, I just don't want to be a predator that way ever. I don't know. Quite a few interesting things you bring up there. I mean, it's wrapped up, isn't it, in this kind of commercialism, the fact that we need to operate within a certain capitalist paradigm. There's no escape. I mean, not for us at this stage. And so what do you do? You have to make some decisions and compromises about where you are and what space you're in and how you're going to interact with people and how you're going to shift work, how you're going to communicate. And I think it's difficult to juggle those juxtaposing positions that you want to be part of it and you don't want to be part of it. So, yeah, I'm interested to see what other people think. But, yeah, really interesting viewpoints. Anyone else struggle with it? Nadira, how do you get on with social media? You're muted at the minute. Hello, can you hear me? OK, hi. Well, I also find social media a bit daunting because it's like you're sharing a certain part of your world that you want others to see, which is kind of weird. And then I feel like everyone's kind of like just world building at the same time. So we're all just sharing like a glimpse and stuff. And then like for me, I do struggle kind of like every time I post something, like before I never used to post. And then when I would post, suddenly like people would appear that I haven't heard from for years and be like, oh, you've posted something or something. And it's a bit scary that like maybe I didn't interact with them. And that was like years ago. But then now I'm getting like I'm getting used to it a bit, but it's still a bit like hard for me to even post, even though I'm posting. And I don't really know how to like, there's a way to kind of display it or feel that there's like a pressure to kind of like lay out your Instagram in a way so it's more eye catching. And mine in particular is kind of just random right now. I'm just, to me, I feel like I'm starting over again. So it's just, yeah. And it's the same as like a website. Like I've learned a lot from today, like seeing all the websites and stuff. And like, yeah, like now I know that I felt like a bit overwhelmed. I had to put like everything I've done into my website. But now I know that I can just choose the work that I feel like resonates with how I am as an artist now. So, yeah, that's all I wanted to say. Sorry, go on. Yeah, I just want to say thank you for pointing out how it's overwhelming and crazy how to, what do you want to put on Instagram? Because just I don't know how long you guys have been using Instagram, but just like we've used probably Facebook. And then that was like more, you know, text based posts. And now that we use Instagram and that's completely changed. You know, you have to have like a nice layout of the pictures you wanted to show. It had to be really pretty, really aesthetic. And all of a sudden that doesn't matter because it's all video based. So, you know, and all the people that are younger than us, like Gen Z, they don't think like this anymore. You know, like have a nice grid of aesthetic images that represent you. So we are kind of completely blown away by this change of how to use social media. So I think that's really, really hard for these new media. And it can be quite overwhelming how you want to present yourself and how you want people to see you, you know, how to perceive you. So we are all kind of facing a really difficult time. Yeah, just have to show yourself, especially as an artist and not just like a creator, like a content creator. Yeah, Chris, your turn. Sorry, I don't know why I keep calling you Chris. That looks so angry. That's the glasses. I don't know what I was going to say now. I was going to say something really, really important and then... No. I can't remember. No, don't say that. What was I going to say? Oh, Craig, maybe Craig remembers. Craig? No, he doesn't care. Adam, if it comes back to me, I can mention it. Okay. Well, I was going to say that something that I'm hearing, and I just want to ask if this resonates, basically, because I think between Berta and Adira and Adonia and Bea, that I've heard a lot of, you know, people rethinking their relationship to Instagram. It feels... Am I wrong in assuming that the way that I feel, which is that I have this sort of like Stockholm Syndrome relationship to Instagram, where, you know, it's held me captive for so long, but I can't... Maybe that's, like, a bad way to put it. But that I can't, you know, get rid of it, where I'm, like, kind of stuck to it. I feel like I need it, but I, like, want to leave it. Does anyone else sort of... Like, you know, Berta, I kind of got some of that in your response. So, you know, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. 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