Redefining Work_ Gen Z_s Blueprint for the Future!

The podcast episode features host Orlando Haynes introducing guest Danielle Farage, a Gen Z expert. Danielle discusses her background and interest in improving workplace communication and conditions for all generations. She emphasizes the importance of understanding and including Gen Z perspectives in the workforce due to their unique challenges and innovative thinking. Despite facing stereotypes, Danielle advocates for bridging the gap between generations to create positive change. She highlights the need for leaders to recognize the value that younger generations bring and shift focus from traditional work methods to prioritizing impact and productivity. Danielle aims to engage with change-makers who are open to embracing differences and creating space for diverse viewpoints in the workplace. Welcome to another episode of the Career Talks podcast. I'm your host, Orlando Haynes. And again, each and every week, I bring you amazing guests. If you hear a loud buzzing in the background, we have the carpet guy, or I should say the couch cleaner here at the same time as the broadcast, so I apologize, folks. So I'll be muting in and out to dissipate that noise, but we will press forward. So before we get started, make sure you're subscribing to the podcast on Apple, Spotify and YouTube so I can continue to bring you some incredible guests like we have today. So absolutely excited to speak with Danielle. You've seen the promotion on it, who is a Gen Z expert speaker and a creator. And so this is the first time we were just talking that I had someone specifically talking about the Gen Z community and their voice, and let's debunk a lot of the, you know, misconceptions of what's going on with that population there in that strong community of talent. So without further ado, let me bring on the amazing, talented Danielle Farage. Hello, hello. Glad to be here. Glad you can join. I know you're all over the place. You've been traveling from city to city. I have. So super, super excited that you can make time for me today. But share with the folks, Danielle, the folks who don't know you, more about you and your background. For sure. So I'm Danielle Farage, like Garage with an F, and I speak about Gen Z and intergenerational communications in the workplace. You know, it's it's been a really personal journey for me. I started my work experience in some of the toxic environment and have always, since I was maybe a little bit a little girl, like seven years old, I've always thought and like played pretend workplace. I've always thought about how do we work, make work better and make work work for everyone. And that really then was the impetus, I think, for me studying psychology and being kind of a little bit people obsessed. And I know that I've heard from many HR folks that if you like people, you should not be going into HR. So that's what I didn't do. And I essentially went into working for HR tech startups and within the roles that I did, I was working really closely with HR professionals and D.I. and position folks and leading a community called the Recruitment Automation Community, which brought together the it was the intersection of A.I. and human process. And this was back in twenty twenty when we were, you know, no one was really talking about A.I. So it was a really fascinating role. And in that role, because I was facilitating so many conversations with these really high powered recruiting and talent executives, I just noticed like we're talking about redefining work, but we're not necessarily including the youngest people in the room. And as someone who studies psychology with the intention of being able to walk into any room, talk to people about what matters to them and then ultimately bring those insights back to the decision makers in the boardroom and help make better decisions about people at scale. I was like, oh, here I am like this is this is why I'm here. This is why I'm in these rooms. And so I started to post about, you know, what Gen D specifically is looking for from leadership. And I at the time, you know, there was there was just a few maybe articles coming out about Gen D being lazy or entitled. And fast forward, you know, five years, it's at a level where, you know, we're starting to try to tune it out. But it's definitely we're getting a lot of the same backlash that millennials, Gen X, boomers and probably every generation since the dawn of time has received. Wow. And that's funny because when we just before we went on air, I'm sorry, this background is killing me, folks, but that I'm surprised that we're still at this pace or at this conversation because of the value you all bring to the table. And it's just evolution of you have to bring in talent to replace the next generation that's going out. And so what have you seen that's been consistent? I know the term lazy, like you said, five years ago was the real big thing. And one of your posts, I think you said, we don't want to work harder. We just want to work smarter. And so speak to what that clip was referencing in the context around that. Definitely. So in my day to day work, I'm either speaking to organizations or conferences about the generation. I'm or I'm consulting with companies to help them really develop new plans and programs to help upskill younger generations and also help managers manage these generations. And third and finally, I do a lot of content. So that's what you're really speaking to. And a lot of the content is informed, again, by my work. And one of the things that I've noticed is that every generation comes into the workplace with different tools, challenges and perspectives. And Gen Z is no different. Right. But the pace of change is. And one of the pieces of backlash I often hear is like, well, generations don't really matter. And we shouldn't be talking about this because they're just labels and they're generalizations and it doesn't help anyone. Right. And it just creates barriers. And, you know, I respect that opinion. I think, you know, when we do separate people, it does often lead to exactly that. Right. That polarization. However, I think that the pros outweigh the cons and naturally our brains differentiate between people and we categorize. That's just how we you know, that's just how our brains work. It's basic psychology. And so Gen Z, if you take a step back and think about the macro, the macro economics of like how we've come into the world of work, we've entered into a space where traditional work is, you know, maybe five percent of the experience. We've entered into a world of A.I., remote work, mental health crisis. Environmental crises all at once. And so, of course, we're going to bring new expectations to the table. And I think the differentiating part about this generation is we're here to talk about them. I think some people would like to dictate them. And I think that we have we do bring a certain level of emotional intelligence just because of the access to information that we've had that we're able to we're able to have more conversations. We're able to understand how things work a little bit faster and come up with solutions a little bit faster. We're very creative in our thinking. But I think that the challenge that we face is a communication of those ideas or thoughts or types of innovation. And we're not necessarily being invited to the table. And so that's what I'm trying to create space for is for us to understand each other better so that those biases can be less of blockers and more of bridges that, you know, create change. I love what you said, because if I were to sum it up a bit, it would sound like to me in my head, it's the old guard with that same methodology of thinking and using phrases like this is where we've always done it. And so when it's time for the changing of guards, they're just not flexible or done the research or considered the value, you know, the next generation should bring. Knowing that there's a vast difference of experience and just really, like you said, opening that bridge to communicate and say, OK, there's still going to be a commonality between us at some point. We want to do good work and do the work right. If the mission is the same, then we can work out all the little ancillary stuff. But it still seems like from what you're with your work, there's that stark still like, hey, we don't think maybe this, you know, the Gen Zers have the talent, the skill set, the thought process to what we, you know, to what we've built so far in an organization. And so when you hear stuff like that, and you're as you're on the front lines, pressing through to say, hey, give us a seat at the table. What are those conversations like? For the most part, do you hear more nos than yeses? What does that look like? I would say that I try to surround myself with more changemakers than naysayers. So that's my goal, right? And I think the content that I create will naturally attract those people who are thinking forward and also people who have kids, right? We're talking about a generation who is in leadership, who many of them have kids who are Gen Z or Gen Alpha. And so there's a certain level of, you know, personal appeal that I try to make when I do my keynotes and one of the first slides I put on the screen after I have everyone take a communal breath is actually, how do you want your children to experience work or feel at work? I think it's feel. And I would say, yeah, I would say so because of my content, I do attract a certain level of person who's like, okay, I understand that this generation is different. And they're also less experienced. Both facts, right? And I think the key differentiator between these types of people who are willing to lean in and the ones who aren't is the recognition that just because you're young or less experienced doesn't mean that you don't have something powerful and valuable to contribute and bring to the table. Doesn't mean that we shouldn't make space for you. And those people are the people who are ready to lean in and look for solutions. I would say that the most common things I hear from leaders are things like, well, this generation just doesn't know how to work hard. And like you said, referring back to that video, I think that we are just, we just have more tools to work smarter. It's like, it's the difference between, and I think this is a very common discussion in like the remote work and hybrid world and how do we work better is like the difference between placing value on time versus placing value on productivity or impact. And I think that Gen D is much more motivated to place value on impact because if you hire me for a certain job, let's say I have, you know, I have to sell 30 packages of, you know, some sort of service a month. And if I can use AI to do that within, let's say, five hours a day versus eight hours a day, then I'm going to do that. Does it mean that I should get more work? Incrementally, right? And it's all about like, and I, and one of the things that I talk about, actually, one of my keynotes is about what do you do with that time that you've now saved? How you've optimized your time, right? Like, how do we reinvest that time back into the organization? And of course, we can continue to go to become profitable. But ultimately, how do we then carve out the space to, you know, to be able to do that to focus on things like mental health? Because according to, as you studied today, seven out of 10 Gen Zers are feeling burned out at work. I think it might even be higher. Seven out of 10 workers generally are burned out at work. And yeah, and it's just kind of like, well, how can we reinvest that into mental health? How can we reinvest that into culture building and into upskilling, right? There's all these types of things that I think are important, but that we might just overlook because we're all focused on productivity and time management and all these things. And what's funny about everything you just said, which is 100% correct, when organizations think about, okay, great. If this person is highly productive and they, you know, they complete their work, whatever it is, in less time than projected, let's add more work, right? And then the next question that never happens, are you going to add more income? Because I was hired for X and just because I'm more efficient, does it mean I should be doing a second job or a second and a half job just because I figured out how to be more efficient in my function? That's exactly what you paid me for, for me. And now we're talking about how do I do more overall? Because my capacity lends itself to that. Then we should have another conversation. Okay, now we're stretching. Once we hit that stretch function or that stretch role or stretch duties, we should be having a conversation and conversation. And that never happens for the most part. Now that I've been in this space over 20 years, I'm like, you know, that really happens unless you're in sales and it's just based off, like you said, selling 30 widgets and I'm compensated based on that end result. But from a, we call it the salary now, the fixed income, right, where you're working 60, 70 hours, but you're only getting paid for the, you know, for the full week. And I think that's the reaction to that of Gen Z and what people commonly see and experience as managers as well. They don't want to work longer than eight hours. Like, they go home at five. Like, I don't want someone like that. Right. And so there's this sort of like this just downward spiral of things that are happening, that are occurring. But if we actually take a step back and address the fact that Gen Z is operating in a system that was not built for us, and it was not built with the existing technology in mind or even at the center, and that we're not placing value as much on impact, but we are on hours, like, let's start to question that behavior. Right. And I think this goes into a whole other discussion that I've been having lately, which is, it actually started last year. I was at this conference called the ISG Future of Work Summit, and that was where I spoke about this like AI and process and how do you fill the time that you use with other things, culture building activities. And so I hosted a roundtable discussion at lunch, and I had someone from a very big company, very big brand name, who's been the headline this past year in a negative way, come to me and say, I've been mentoring a few Gen Z professionals with an organization, and one of them specifically is having a really hard time. He wants to be promoted. However, he's not willing to do the hard work. Well, my first question, what do you think it was? How do you define hard work? Correct. And that's a series that I've actually taken to the Muse and partnered with them because they're an incredible, you know, not only an employer brand platform, but they have really been in this millennial, you know, young professional Gen Z space for so many years. And we did a series all about redefining terms, because things like professionalism and hard work might mean something, and do, in fact, mean something incredibly different to you versus me. And so how do we take those learnings inside the organization is, well, if you, you know, have, I've actually, yeah, so going back to this manager, she then said, well, I don't know, like, I guess we have a job description that we use to hire him. And I was like, well, how often are you revisiting that job description, going through each point and actually reviewing him based on the KPIs? And she's like, oh, I don't know, like, I'm not his manager, but I assume that, like, he's not getting as much direction as he probably needs. And I also said, well, also consider this, what type of work are you doing? Like, how are you working? And she said, we've traditionally been an in-office company. However, we've been remote first since the pandemic. And I asked her, I was like, so do you think that, you know, you say to me that he has a challenge with getting promoted. A, do you understand why he wants to be promoted? Because it's likely something, you know, beyond just money. But secondly, does he have a great example of what that promotion-friendly or promotion-deserving behavior looks like within the organization that he could look up to? Because it's all about how do we, there's a certain word for it. It's like in apprenticeships, right? How do you, like, copy someone else's behavior? And she said, probably not, because he's been remote, remote first. And he hasn't really had someone to show him what it looks like to deserve that promotion. So those are, yeah, those are, like, that's one of the, a pretty good example of how, you know, how the mismatch and trying to apply old world thinking to a new world really impacts the generations, specifically younger generations right now in the workplace. And so that, because that sounded, initially sounded like where the manager was looking at hard work, tying it to the amount of time you spend, you know, doing work. Doing work or at the organization generally. Correct. Physically present, and like, seeing that you're here for an extended period of time versus the level of productivity that's getting done. And so, yeah, that can get so blended and confusing in that overlap of thinking to say, well, if I'm here 60 hours, 70 hours a week, and again, I'm only paid for the 40, is the additional 30 hours that I'm putting in productive? Or is it busy work? Or does it look like work? Just to, you know, get to the next stage. And if it's that, is that the culture here that I have to put in these, you know, ghost hours, but physically just to see, like, I'm doing something to go to the next level. It's like, is that the culture we're thinking in? For the most part, you're right. Danielle, you're absolutely right. That's the old guard in the old model of thinking, like, I don't see you here, so my assumption is you're not working. Well, you can, at today's age, I can be here all day and really not be producing anything. Right, and often I hear, oh, well, they come to the office, but they're always on their phones. And, okay, sure, like, we are pretty addicted to our phones. Like, any study will find that. And who gave us the technology? And who's enabled us with the technology? Who built the technology? Wasn't us. So now we're all starting to question, well, how often do I want to be on my phone? But it's not because of any, you know, it might be a parent who's saying, well, how often are you on your phone? And at the same time, how many people listening have you, how many of you have gone on, you know, a website and, like, started shopping during the workday? Because you had nothing to do and you had downtime. Like, I think we're kind of kidding ourselves if we think that we have been heads down, focus mode, nine to five every single day. And the thing that I question, honestly, all the time is, like, how did we go so long, like, since the industrial era, requiring people to work in an office that they have no control over the environment, probably fluorescent lighting, probably in cubicles right most of the time, and been productive the same hours every day? We all have different brains. I'm a neurodivergent thinker. I thrive when there is, like, natural light and certain hours of the day. Monday morning, do not talk to me. Like, I'm just saying. I block out Monday morning for, like, self-care, easing into the week, planning my week, because I know that I'm not productive on a Monday morning. So that's just one of the questions I've always had. How do we actually expect people to all be productive at the same exact time? I just don't think that that's actually realistic. But enough of that. Enough of me. It's funny, because it made me think of what Jeff Bezos said. I saw a quick, like, video interview about him. He said even at his level, right, his first meetings are not conducted until 10 a.m. He muddles around, gets the family together, the kids to school, whatever he does, you know, reads the newspaper, et cetera, because he realized his most optimum time of thinking and brain power is between, like, 10 and 2. He said, after that, and I make just, you know, the big decisions, he goes, after that, he's like, I'm really no good. But I make sure that I'm not, you know, taking calls, heavy decisions at 8 a.m., 7 a.m., you know, I can't take any meetings until 10, because that's when I know I've reached my peak, and now I'm at my prime time to say, OK, I'm ready to function. And so I think people have to realize that piece, too. Regardless, you come in, you have meetings all day, and it's like, after the third meeting in a row or fourth meeting in a row, how mush is your brain at that point to where you're like, I don't remember the last two meetings, and I'm supposed to give some incredible insight in these next three. Like, I have nothing left mentally to give. Yeah, and I think that's what a lot of these tools, you know, these new AI tools are really helpful for. If you put enough information into a chat GBT to actually then serve you later on, but you show up to just like this, right? If I'm showing up to a podcast recording and I haven't prepped, I could literally just type in a chat GBT, hey, can you come up with some talking points for me? It's talking about overall, like, this is the topic and this is the summary of the talk. Can you come up with some talking points based on my past three months of content? Beautiful. It's like, it's my favorite thing in the world because it's so efficient and it would take me so much longer and so much more brain power to reproduce and repurpose what I actually already created and things I actually already thought about and talked about publicly. So, that's how I'm using AI. You might have to give a private class on that. I think that's phenomenal. That'll work in both spaces. When you, yeah, like I'm saying, I collab with you in fact. So, when you think about the conversations you've been having, you know, with the corporations and clients that you work with, what's been the aha moments that's broken, or should I say broken a misconception to now you like? They're like, ah, I got it. That makes so much sense, Danielle. It's a good question. I have to think about it. Yeah, you can circle back. No worries. Yeah, I mean, I would probably say, recently, I was at Transforms and one of the things that we were talking about was, you know, Gen Z and like the career pathing. So, I was on a panel with the VP of Town Inquisition, I believe, or maybe it was VP of HR, of Handshake and 2B TV, joined by Kyle Forrest from Deloitte, he's incredible. And one of the things that we had talked about in the pre-panel conversation that also came up on the panel that I think Valerie voiced, but I brought up initially on the call, was like, we are forcing many Gen Zers into a specific path. Like, when I was in college, I think it was like the number one coolest thing and, you know, most sought after thing was going into finance consulting or, you know, maybe tech. And when I, as a researcher in my everyday, when I look at the macro trends of where there's layoffs, where money is being invested, where jobs, you know, are, where opportunity lies, I think of the really intense and rigorous path of going from, you know, and I'm going to take you even back before college, like, you're in high school, you're in middle school and you're thinking about what college, what high school should I get to to go into the right college? And once you're in that high school, what college should I get to to get the right job? And once you're in that job, maybe if you're lucky, what do I do next? And we find ourselves, many, many young people, many millennials, I think, went through this as well, in this kind of weird position where it's like, oh, I've actually never really thought about what I want, what I truly want. And I've always been trying to fit into someone else's box of what I'm supposed to be or who I'm supposed to, you know, follow or how I'm supposed to think. And oftentimes now I've actually heard it a lot, like people don't want to hire the Harvard MBAs because they don't think in a, you know, they might think in a business degree type of way. But there was actually a really incredible piece in Harvard Business Review maybe a year and a half ago about how companies are not hiring as many MBA grads and they're more so hiring the people who are right out of high school that are like coding geniuses. So anyway, I say that all to say, many of us go on onto this path. And meanwhile, a lot of the opportunities there are really not for entry level. Much of the opportunities are disappearing by the day because AI is coming in and more hiring managers are motivated to hire AI versus hire a new grad who requires a lot more attention and skilling and training. And so now I'm looking at this. I'm like, OK, here's that situation over here. But then you also have all these other industries like the trades and construction and manufacturing and industrial. And I just attended an industrial intelligence conference, which powers a lot of the manufacturing in this country, which is getting trillions of dollars invested into. And we then start to say, oh, well, why is it that these other areas are kind of taboo and like no one's talking about them? And so I think bringing that up of like make trades cool again, because many people who are in the trades can actually afford, you know, the lifestyle that they want. They have the stability, the flexibility, the entrepreneurial spirit that much of Gen Z actually craves. And so that was one of the aha moments, I think, from that conversation and Valerie after the panel, I know she posted about it and it got a lot of attention because it's true. Like, why are we kind of poo pooing the trades or things that we do with our hands or just like unsexy industries that actually have a lot of opportunity? And there are companies like Aviva, who I was with last week, who are investing heavily in next generation because they have to because there's a talent shortage, but also because they want to, because they recognize that we have what it takes to bring new innovation to market. We have the creativity, the openness to new tech and the curiosity to do so. And so you're definitely in my warehouse right now when it comes to the day job is in that trade in the engineering space, like we chatted briefly before we came on, and you hit it right on the head. It's not, it's no longer sexy, but it's the foundation of so many things that, you know, we enjoy. It's a society, right? How it was built through trade skills. And so when you think about, and this can be, you know, the mindset of a lot of folks who may not see it being attractive anymore, because who knows social media, you have to have this lifestyle where these type of clothes looking, you know, high rise office and the perception is the trades doesn't give you that, right? It's dirty, it's grimy, it's back breaking, but it's absolutely the foundation of America in the, one of the most stable industries in this country. Yeah. It's the foundation of my family. Like my dad came, you know, he was 21. He came from Israel to the US, you know, moved here with like $800 in his pocket. And he built his now thriving business, which is an indoor go-karting and entertainment business, which is very fun. Five locations on the East Coast. He's built that on the back of building another business, which was in construction, high end construction in New York City. So that's actually where he was able to build a foundation for what was later, you know, a passion project turned real business. And that is the type of, you know, obviously, that's long term, we're talking about, you know, he went from, you know, 25 years old, started his business, and then until around like 45, and then started this new business. And he's been doing it for 15 years. And obviously, that's long term, which I think Gen Z is, we tend to be very short term focused. And that's, so that's one thing. But also, that's the type of life that we want to build for ourselves, right? We want 70% of us want to own one or more businesses in our lifetimes. And so it's, you know, as I look more into the data, and look into the lifestyles that these types of careers really do provide, like, I'm like, oh, this actually makes a lot of sense. But now it's about telling the story of why. So to your last point about the multiple streams, do you think that Gen Zs are looking at it from a lack of trust in the government? So like, hey, or current instability in corporate America, and I can't rely on just the one stream, I need to be able to, you know, have this flexibility? Or is it lifestyle? Like, I want a certain lifestyle. And if I can't get into the most elite and, you know, opportunities, that's not going to pay me that I got to create multiple streams. I think it's both. The second one I'll start with, because it's pretty simple. I think that we look at millennials, and we look at the experience of work of millennials and the type of path they followed, which is very much the climb up the corporate ladder, go to a good school, then climb up a corporate ladder and maybe, you know, get some wealth from that. And we look at that, and we think, A, most millennials are burnt out and can't afford a home. So we don't, you know, that's like, not where we want to go. And so we're kind of rerouting and saying, that won't work for A, my mental health, and B, how I want to live and the type of freedom I want to have, and the experience of life I want to have. And so we're rerouting, and we're saying, oh, okay, so first, I, you know, need to start my own business, because that's how you get financial freedom and freedom generally, in this world. You look at every single, you know, nearly every person that this generation looks up to is an entrepreneur, right? You think it's Gary Vaynerchuk's of the world. And that's who this generation is listening to, right? Like, Alex Cooper's of the world. And these people have all built their own businesses. And so we really highly value entrepreneurship. I also think that there is a degree to which it is glamorized and over glamorized, because as an entrepreneur, I'm like, this is really freaking hard. And because of social media, and because of the pressure of like, my business needs to succeed, there's less incentive to be sharing those more vulnerable parts of and hardships of building a business. And so it's often over glamorized. But I would say, even before, even like taking the millennial part out of the equation, this generation really highly values leveraging what we already have, and seeing that we have technology that it's so easy to start a business, you can do it in two minutes today. Why not use that? And I think if any other generation were born at this time, they would be doing the same exact thing. Makes sense. It makes 100% sense. So here's a scenario question for you. You have the room, all CEOs, executives, etc. It's the old guard. And it's just you, just Danielle Farage. What are the things you're telling them to that they should consider when, you know, connecting and needing to bridge the gap with the Gen Z's in today's, what I like to call career economy? I would probably ask a question. And I would ask, if you think about the early career experience at your organization right now, how many of you would want to stay? And I feel like, you know, those shows like, what's that show? Undercover Boss. Those are always the most powerful shows. Those programs that put people on, you know, in the day to day, driving the Ubers and working in the kitchen and like, really like doing the work that probably no one really wants to do. Those are the best. Those are the best experiences because they actually provide so much insight as to how you feel when you're doing the work, what the experience is like, why you might stay, why you might leave. And I think if I were to ask specifically the CEOs and that type of demographic, that question of like, hey, do you even know what it's like to live a day in the life of like a young professional in your organization? Like, do you know what the typical experience is? And if I were also to maybe do an audit, an internal audit and like collect some quotes, of course, I'd be fair. Of course, I'd have, you know, a fair representation of the overall sentiment. And I collect some good quotes and probably some bad ones. But I think, you know, the power of explaining like the gap between perception and reality and getting to a place where I could bring their minds back to like, OK, well, if your perception is up here and the reality is here and I bring you back down here and then I'm like, OK, how do we build from here? Then that is a great starting point, because that means we're all on the same level. And I would also say the incentive is if you don't think about the experience of being here in five years when, you know, Gen Z is 50% of the workforce, you're not going to have, you're going to have a really hard time attracting and recruiting and retaining people. That's what it is. And that's a huge cost. It's a huge cost. It's a huge cost. They'll be completely out of touch. Yeah. So any CEO, I won't say any, I don't want to make a blanket statement, but for especially when the company is a larger company, you just get far removed from, you know, the culture piece and you're more driven to write production and numbers, revenue, etc. So throughout your experience, what companies have you identified or seen that you're aware of that are doing it right, that are making that bridge, that are making that connection? And you see not just because it's the shiny nickel, it's the Google, it's the, you know, the next big tech company, but what companies that are like, hey, they seem to have it right, because I see a lot of Gen Zers driven to that because of purpose and mission and their value. I would say at a high level, it's it's companies who invest really heavily in their brands are often ones that are, you know, the ones that people want to work at. And not, it's not necessarily that employer brand or brand generally translates to a positive experience of work. But if you're trying to retain or attract the next generation, you could do it just through really great marketing. And I would also say, as far as the experience of work, organizations that are going out of their way, you know, where the CEO willingly sits down with a young professional in the office one day, just randomly and sparks up conversation, right, like those people, those leaders, who are willing to put the ego aside or operate with little to no ego and just sit down and have a conversation with anyone about what matters to them. Those are the types of organizations where I find young people thrive the most. And actually, those sporadic conversations mean so much to those young professionals, because then they think, wow, this CXO took time out of their busy day to sit down with me for 15 minutes. Like, that feels really good. That instills a lot of confidence in me that like, that's actually not a really far unattainable goal for me to hit, to be a CXO of this organization. And, you know, maybe if even if I end up somewhere else, that this person might be willing to invest in me still and take the time to mentor me. And so I would say that's like, the first thing is like that, you know, the leaders being willing to lean in and talk to anyone. The second, the second one is, you know, organizations who do programming, where they're bringing different generations together. That could be through mentorship programs, it could be through lunch and learn through workshops. But I'm, I actually started to do some intergenerational workshops and facilitation where I bring people together to talk about a topic. It could be mental health at work, it could be AI, it could be like all these different things. But you basically get people in a room together or virtually, and you break them out and you just try to get people talking to each other. And there are so many incredible, you know, like beautiful collisions that can happen when you just get people in a room together and get them talking about something that is super relatable. So I think, you know, those are those are two of the things that kind of stand out to me. And I would say just a third one is like organizations who aren't afraid to say the thing that is on everyone's mind. If there's a tough decision that's being made, you know, they think this generation really values transparency. And so even if the answer is, I don't know, or I can't tell you why, but this is just the decision that's being made, and I'm going to do everything I can as your manager, as your leader to protect you and to, you know, fight for what matters to you and to us as a team and what makes us most productive. I think like that is the type of leadership and the type of transparency we look for. And I would think, because there's so much that you've touched on in that, in what you said, is that one, the leaders need to be so aware, right, and so connected to the people and not just the product of service, that they're really invested in the culture to say, okay, this is what we want. This way, we're not struggling for talent because this is who we are. It's not just a great, you know, marketing ploy, but it's something that once they're in here, they're like, wow, it's actually better than what I thought. Yeah. Actions over words. Correct. And I think it's, I would say it's definitely easier for a company to come up with a great marketing strategy to attract, to your earlier point, and not fix the internal things that keeps them there. And so it's like you're filling, you're doing all the work to fill an empty, you know, a bucket with a hole in it because you haven't done the internal work. And it happens every day. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So for companies and individuals, no, here's my question. With the talent that you're seeing now, still in that same scenario, you have that room of CEOs. What would you say they need to stop doing this way they can attract, you know, and retain, you know, the next generation of talent? Like, here's what, if you can't, other things may be a little longer, but here's what I think you can start working on right now to stop doing. Don't call your place of work a family. That's such a red flag. Such a red flag. Yeah. I mean, unpack that. I mean, it's like, it's just a red flag for, like, young professionals to hear we're like a family. I think it started, you know, because it was a trend a number of years ago to be like, oh, we're just a family. But it's like, yeah, but families are complicated and complex in their own way. And like, family is a really strong word. Like, that's reserved for my own family. Like, what are you talking about? You're my family. And I think there is generally, like, this desire for a separation between, like, church and state for young people. I think of a little bit of an anomaly. I like work and life to be very intertwined. And of course, like, there are moments when I feel overwhelmed. And like, I'm working on a Sunday and my family is downstairs celebrating something. And I'm like, oh, like, I want to be downstairs and be with them. But I also have my own business. And like, I think that that has to come first in some ways. So, maybe a little different. But yeah, I think, like, we definitely value, again, going back to our desires, our general desires in the workplace to, like, have a job that sustains us. But that leaves room for us to focus on what we're passionate about and build a life around that or with work in mind, but not necessarily at the center, I think is a big motivation. So, to say, hey, you're like our family, and then to experience, like, a toxic work environment, something like that, I think that leaves a bad taste in a lot of people's mouth. So, that's one. Yeah, it's a big one. I would also say, you know, start trying to be mindful of your unconscious bias when it comes to age, because we live in a time where so much is democratized, right? Like, access to people is democratized through the internet and social media platforms. You used to never be able to, like, get a hold of a CEO unless you're in the office with them on a random Wednesday, you know? And even then, they have a personal assistant in the front of their office. And like, there's, you know, there's that kind of hierarchical structure that's really, really present. And now, it's much less so. And so, I would say, and also because of the internet, like, we all have access to the same information, give or take. And so, stop trying to say that, like, young people don't know anything, and start being aware of your unconscious bias when it comes to young people. Because there's a hell of a lot of young people that are impressive to me, and that, in my opinion, have accomplished a lot more or, like, been more successful. And honestly, the idea of success generally is kind of, you know, what even is that? But we see a number of, like, young people who are, and it gets younger and younger and younger, who are just being very successful. And so, I would say, like, age is just a number. Focus on, you know, experience and skills and what someone brings to the table in terms of how they think. Because AI is coming for all of us. You know, not to be a fear monger, but like, it really is an equalizer. So, how do we start to, like, see people for who they are? And what does, like, something like youth, actually, what does that bring to the table? What's the value in that? And like, trying to see the positives in each other more than the negatives. And I say that to both sides. I would say, you know, it's like, I think everyone is guilty of not doing that. It's like we need a company and call it Kumbaya, so we can all just come together, right? Right. So, let's reverse that room before we close out. Let's reverse the audience. It's all Gen Z's now. What have you learned from the older generation that you can say, hey, guys, they have a point, or give them grace here, or this is the best way to approach and help support closing the gap? I'm going to bring up, actually, something that I came up with, a framework. And this is something that I present to young people, usually, like, college students or young grads. And it's called the CAPS method. Okay. And it's all around, like, the premise of it and the context I give is, like, it's amazing to, like, know who you are and to be able to confidently communicate that in the workplace. And it's important to also be mindful that you are but a speck in the universe. And you are but a coin in this equation of the general organization at large, right? And so, how do you remind yourself of that as an early career professional? You know, we all bring something really valuable to the table. And as someone who's younger in their career, like, I can say I probably have had times where I'm, like, overemphasizing my value, and, like, it doesn't come off well. So, anyway, I failed to say, this is the CAPS approach, okay? K is know your place, right? Again, you are but a speck in the universe. You are also but a speck in the organization. And while it's great to know who you are and what you bring, it's also great to know your place and, A, act as a team player, right? It's, like, when you join any type of organization, whether it's a nonprofit or a club on college campus, like, I always follow this of, like, just sit and retain. And once you understand and once you've met enough people, then you share your opinion. Then you come to the table with solutions and potential solutions. And I think that that's a big one, acting as a team player. Also thinking about one of the things I hear a lot from managers of Gen Z is, like, how your actions influence the team and the workflow. And so if you decide to take a mental health day on a Friday and you have something that's due on Monday, if you want to take off Friday, then make sure that you get your work done over the weekend so that you're not impacting the entire team because you could be, you know, basically preventing everyone else from getting their work done, right, and being that blockage. The third one in CAPS is P. So positivity always wins, right? I think as a generation, as, like, a society right now, we're very polarized. And so it's really easy to get swept up and feel down in the dumps, right? And I think mental health is really important. And you want to be thought of in the organization as someone who is positive, who's bringing not just problems, but solutions to the table and being solutions-oriented, being willing to tackle really hard problems and to take on the work that no one else wants to do. That's often what I hear from older generations and what I've personally experienced in growing your career and just, you know, being a team player. It's part of it. It's just being positive. And that will naturally make people attracted to you versus running away. And the S in CAPS is seek out mentors and mentors. So I think, like, when I ask people what the biggest influence on their career has been, they usually say, A, find people who, like, inspire you and try to follow their path. That's, like, probably the number one answer. And so and because of that, it's, like, okay, so as I'm going through my career, I'm obviously, like, acquiring mentors. But it's also important to recognize that when we're in these sorts of mentorship situations, there is still a power dynamic. And so I encourage people to not just find mentors, but also find mentors, people who are their colleagues, maybe they're friends, people who they can really learn from and learn with. And so how I define that is it's a mutually beneficial, authentic, and vulnerable relationship between two people of any age where the focus is the three L's. What can I learn? What can I leave to the world? And what can I leverage to help me grow in my career or my life? So that's, like, the CAS method that would probably be what I would share with my Gen Z colleagues and counterparts. Absolutely love that. That's pretty powerful. I think that has a level of introspection, right, that they need to consider versus, you know, on both sides versus sticking a flag in the sand and saying, this is what it is. This is who I am. That's inclusion, right? It's rooted in inclusion and inclusion and belonging and where you focus on inclusion, the rest follows, is what I've learned. Love it. Love it. Danielle, I appreciate you so much for joining me in such a short time. Again, I know you're in the midst of travels here, but final question for you that I ask my guests. What makes you wake up and do what you do every day? I would say probably knowing that my job, my mission on this earth is to serve the world and make the world a better place, what we call it in Hebrew, tikkun olam, repairing the world. And I think that, like, that's just that's my role. And so in order to fulfill that role, I have to wake up every day and do what I do and make like crazy things happen and make leaders care and make everyone really care more about each other. So I think it's really rooted in my faith. Love it. You said make leaders care. Love that. Awesome. Share with the folks where they can find you, connect with you, work with you, hire you, all of it. Yeah. So you can go to danielleferage.com. Again, it's garage with an F. And I'm also a co-host of the H.R. Morning Show every Tuesday at 10 a.m. that is with two amazing podcasters, Adam Posner, who runs the podcast, and Joel Alge, the realist recruiter, social media maven. He's really incredible. So we do that every Tuesday. So tune in there. We talk about current events, news. We have amazing guests on. I'm sure we'd love to have you on, Orlando. So you'll be a little swap. And then, yeah, I'm heading to ERE, the recruiting conference in Vegas in a week and a half. So just find me there if you're going. Nice. Again, appreciate your time. So wise, if I dare to say, in your youth. So you're definitely someone on the front lines that is not only sharing the Gen Z message, living it, but bringing solutions. Right. So it's not just you're not complaining. You're saying, hey, guys, here's the solution. We work together. And so I think that's what's a key separator for you. So appreciate it again. Everyone, if you're not following Danielle, you absolutely need to. Her content is hilarious, especially through her travels. You got to connect with her. So appreciate everyone for tuning in. And we'll see you next time on The Career Talks Podcast. See ya.