Expectations, Communication, and Stewardship of a M.O.G (Man of God)”

The Let's Talk About It podcast discusses frustrations about Christian men and dating. Women share experiences and highlight the importance of seeking guidance from biblical perspectives. Issues like communication, societal influences, unrealistic expectations from media, and challenges in navigating relationships are explored. The conversation emphasizes the need for men to understand and value character over superficial aspects in relationships. Men are encouraged to break stereotypes and learn how to build meaningful connections based on Christian values. Alright, welcome to the Let's Talk About It podcast. My name is Matt and I will be the moderator. I am here with five great godly men and women. I have Travis to my right, Jasmine, as well as Janae, and I have my beautiful wife, Christina. She is my Jasmine to the Aladdin. Oh, you can say it again. Oh, doesn't that sound great, guys? And I got Jamie, the only USA, born and bred Texan, having the big truck, Stossis, around here. Okay, and she's not from Texas, she's from Florida, guys. And so, we're going to talk about these, boy, are you building big. There are some questions that have been going around where, men, ladies got some things to say. It seems like you haven't been showing up. So, they got some questions, as well as some point of views you can think about. Hey, how about that, you know? If you're always saying, hey, if she likes me, what should I look for? I don't know, maybe these women, from a biblical Christian point of view, can help. They are not God, so you should humble yourselves and seek His guidance, but this may be able to help understand how you should pursue, and probably not pursue her. So, let's talk about it. First question I have for you, what is so frustrating about Christian men? What are they not doing, that seem to be a problem? I don't really have any complaints, I'm married, well, I won't talk about it. What have you gone through, previously, honey, before you were married, that you think, hey, you know, this would have been a lot better, if it was communicated, in the dating realm of relationships, to see if this person would be a good person to follow. I think two things. Number one, it would have been better for me, if either A, I had chosen to seek out more married women, and married couples to be around, so that I could see what it looks like, and to be mentored by women, to know, like, okay, I want leadership in a man, or I want humility in a man, okay, what does that look like, and what do you need to be doing to also be showing those things, or to be showing Christian traits, that you would want to show up in your marriage, that you should also show up with, in your marriage. Other thing, would be, I just had it in my head, and this is a good one, oh, it was very frustrating for me, that men didn't know how to talk to women, in Christian settings. It was always, especially in college, like, the guys are on one side, and the girls are on the other, and never the twain ever met, ever, and it was really annoying, because either it was, they never talked to you, because A, I don't want to give you the wrong idea, or B, I don't know how to talk to you, period, or it was, if I talk to you, I'm trying to make it super clear, that I have no intentions, which I'm like, okay, that's fine, but like, you can just talk to me, like, it wasn't a realization of, we can actually speak to one another, we can actually have conversations, without it being anything, and you don't have to assume, that I might make it about that, I mean, I can't speak for the rest of the female population, but, you know, those are things that I would have loved, know how to talk. I think that's a great point you bring up, Christina, because I think a lot of women, well, not a lot of women, but I would say some girls, let's just be honest ladies, when you have a guy that starts talking to you, you immediately start thinking he could be your husband, so, why do we do that? Why do we start fantasizing about people that we barely know, especially if they look good, like let's just be honest guys, if he's handsome, and he goes to church, those are usually, you know, the minimum criteria, when, I mean, I think what we really should be looking at is what the Bible says, and what we should be looking for, from him. You know, I have a follow-up question to that, and a statement as far as, I think that society has a huge part to play in that, because let me tell you, before I got married, and then when I got married, I would watch, like, any show that had relationships in it, and I was like, I've been lied to, like, I've been so lied to, not that I took that as reality, but the fact that I would see things in just, even completely harmless shows, like, that's not how that is, that's not how that shows up in the world, so, it could be like, what is society telling us that maybe has been a point of deception? Jasmine has something to say, I think, right? No? Jasmine. Alright, so, I'm hearing all of this, hey, man, you have some work to do, doesn't seem like you're communicating to these expectations that the TV show or movies are actually providing, is that right? No, not at all? No? Okay, so maybe the issue isn't the TV shows, but what's the problem, Jamie, what's the problem here? I think in today's society, it's very common to have the kind of love at first sight aspect, where you, like Janae was saying, you meet somebody, and immediately it starts running through your mind, hey, this could be, like, my future spouse, but, like, in reality, you don't actually know the character of that person, because you haven't been around them long enough to learn that, especially their character, like, in God and in their walk with the Lord, that's something that you're only going to start to learn about once you're around the person more, and so I think the view that society has promised with, like, the movies and everything of, like, this love at first sight aspect is totally wrong and blown out of proportion, because then it gives everyone this false idea of you immediately know the person you're talking to when you actually don't know anything about them other than what you're seeing at face value, and so I think, like, that has been one of the issues, is, like, we've just been lied to through movies and through TV shows and all of these outlets that are telling you, you know, love at first sight exists, you know, so-and-so, you meet him and you have this crazy connection, blah-blah-blah, all these, like, this neat, cute stuff, like, all that kind of stuff, like, the chemistry is off the charts, like, that's not real life, that's not legit, that's why it's on TV, and that's why half of the people that are even playing those characters aren't even in committed relationships. Well, all right, so I'm going to say this, though, and this might be that one categorized bitter person that says, okay, why are you looking at TV shows to be your foundation of what a dating should be? That doesn't make sense. I mean, if you hear me, like, you're watching something and you're like, ooh, wow, yeah, I want an Aladdin in my life that's poor, homeless, and has no job. Right! But, I mean, like, if you see some of these TV shows, you're thinking to yourself, why would any woman want to make sure this works? Like, okay, any reality show, bachelorette, bachelorette. Well, you're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. You're seeing a lot of them. So, Travis, from your perspective, regarding what men deal with, again, you're one man. Tell me, do you see some validity to this, or is there more to it than meets the eye, like Transformers? Two fast forwards from me, and then I'll let out what I agree with. So, like, when you're hearing what we ladies are saying about men, right, and so you think to yourself, hey, maybe there's a lot more in that. Maybe it's not completely false, but I think this should also be considered in what guys go through. Christian men. I'm not talking about the alpha-like men or just Christian biblical men. All right. First, before I kind of go on, I do agree with both Christina and Jamie. They make really good points, especially with the whole separation thing. I've seen that plenty of times when I go to new places and go to new communities. It's always like the girls on one side, the guys on one side, and it's like occasionally that one couple that kind of breaks up a little bit. But, yeah, I've seen that plenty of times. And I kind of agree with Jamie. There is a lot of that, you know, love at first sight. You know, it's all about feelings and looks, and then there's no substance there kind of deal. No one knows how to really look for the substance, how to kind of build those connections properly and know what to look for. But, yeah, it's like from a guy's perspective. I guess like the challenge we face, I think, is that I think a lot of guys just don't know how to navigate relationships when they're both platonic and romantic. You know, I think it's a struggle for a lot of guys. They don't know how to navigate that. They either, I'm going to be careful how I say this, either kind of like overvalue, kind of like the, sorry, give me a second. It's almost like they, I see that. I think there's a challenge of like learning how to navigate relationships, how to treat women properly, and kind of really kind of fight the, and really challenge like the expectations and the notions that kind of get fed through the media, through, you know, the world in general, I would say. The world tells us a lot of lies about what relationships look like, what it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman, stuff like that. So, I actually have a question for Travis. Would you say that women's expectations of men influence the challenge that they face navigating those platonic and romantic relationships? Sometimes it can. Sometimes it can. There's definitely, there's folks that can do that, I would say. Would you care to expound on that answer? Actually, I'd really love it if you could. I will say like one of the things that I, in person sex, that kind of gets me sometimes is just like trying to figure out whether I'm like in the right place, like in the right place in my life in order to pursue a woman kind of deal. Like, do I make enough money? What about my character? Am I really where I should be or where I want to be or where a woman would want me to be at in order for me to be seen as a suitable partner for them kind of deal. Do you think that women have realistic expectations about where a man should be? Are there any that you've seen that are realistic, even if they're challenging to you? Like, okay, maybe I'm not there. No, there's some realistic. I mean, there are definitely people who have like completely kind of out there, but like I think a lot of people, women in church have pretty realistic expectations. They want a godly man who actually is a part of church community, leads and serves in some capacity, actually prays and leads the worship. I mean, I think that's like pretty stuff. So, from a biblical man's point of view, what would you say that leading a relationship or being prepared to be in a relationship to support that person looks like? I mean, one, I think the most important one is having an actual ongoing relationship with Christ that you're actually growing in and developing. It starts there. I think from there, you know, you have your community, you're part of a church. You have men you're being cycled by. You're hopefully the sophomore and stuff like that. I have a question. So, yes, I think I can definitely agree that women are looking for someone who can lead that can pray, that can do all those things. But let's be honest, some of, I would assume, I mean, maybe you can answer this. I know I've heard some of the men in the church feel like there's financial things and they have to get their career together. They have to finish school. They have to buy their first house. I don't know. Like, there's just all these other societal pressures that may not actually be actually communicated from women, but men take on themselves. Yeah, that is true. There's definitely that aspect of, like, having to be a provider and what that really looks like. Is it, do I make enough money to where the wife can stay home and what does that look like? What if I'm not there? So, what if I'm still renting an apartment, you know, do I have to have a house? Those are all really kind of valid questions that I found myself kind of thinking about and wrestling with. So, do you feel like that, because, I mean, we discussed a little earlier that, you know, whether or not men pursue, and I'm thinking, these issues or these reasons might attribute to that, because it's like, well, hey, I don't have my finances in order. I don't have, I'm just starting my career, or I don't have the capability of having, financing a family, you know, so I feel like that keeps them maybe out of fear or maybe out of, you know, I don't know what the emotion is. I mean, maybe help me articulate that. Yeah, I think you're right. I think that does play a factor. I don't really know where that can be described as fear or insecurity or, like, maybe, I don't know, maybe like not understanding, like, where your worth comes from kind of deal, maybe. I don't really know how it can really be spread out into, like, one specific kind of emotion, but yeah, that is true. I agree with that. It's definitely a factor. Do you have something to say, Jasmine? I think on the topic of, like, pursuing, I think with the roles of, like, what a guy should be like and what a girl should be like in a relationship, there tends to be a lot of burden on the man, like, oh, I need to be financially stable, like, if I'm here to be a husband or, like, prepare to be a husband, like, I need to make sure I can provide both spiritually, mentally, physically, like, financially, and I feel like a lot of the ways, at least from my experience, seeing, like, the guys in my life struggle is they think about all these things in a worldly standpoint and they don't lean onto God. They're all like, I need to make money, so I'm going to work hard, but they ended up sacrificing their time with the Lord and also their partner, and to be able to lead well both as a man and a woman, like, you need to make sure you are being led, like, you are being fed by God first because the foundation of a relationship romantically, like, it should be based upon God, so if you guys are not right with God, you guys will not be well. So I feel like in this day and age, a lot of struggles that I see in relationships are, like, me as a woman, like, trying to seek, like, godly men is I feel like a lot of people try to do it on their own and they don't find community, and with a lot of guys in my life, they don't want to admit that they are vulnerable and they need help, but if you don't cry out to God, like, you're not going to be well, and if you don't take God's hand, like, you are not going to be able to lead even yourself. So I think that is a very good point. So if I throw in the wrench, that's considered a monkey, where does grace and compassion align with that, because some men, and I'm speaking from experience before I've been married to this beautiful woman, it doesn't seem to be, I guess, I mean, I'm going to act like what I was back then, like, very insecure and very whining, but I'm trying my best to be obedient to God, but it's like, I don't feel like I'm getting a chance. There's evidence of me trying to be obedient, there's evidence in saying, hey, like, I'm going to church every day, I really do like her, she is a distraction, but like, hey, I am going to church, I'm really focused, listening to 30% of what the pastor says, because she's right next to me, you know. I mean, I will eventually hear the remaining 70% when I get home. That's what we're going to say again. Right. But it's one of those things where it's like, where is it allowed to be able to struggle well and still be viewed as, hey, this is a potential. You may not be it still, but what is the potential? So, just for clarity, sorry, for clarity, is this question in regards to finances or is this general? Well, and that's a great question because part of it is men are being viewed as if the finance is enough to decide nothing else is good. That's how it's being viewed. As in, hey, maybe my finances aren't in order, but all other criteria seems to be in place, but we're not given a chance. That's what it's being viewed like. I'm not saying it's true, but that's going to be. That can be, but you're saying that that can be a view or maybe, I think Travis mentioned, you mentioned something about, and I think that was a kind of a phrase or a concept that went around of, I'm working so hard to make sure that I'm making enough money and that I'm providing. Or like, my life looks stable enough for a woman to want to give me an opportunity. But then Jasmine was saying, but then I forget what's actually important. Like, I'm trying to establish all of the things that I would think women want or women are communicating, whether they intend to or not, what they're wanting. But then what we as women sometimes can see is that, well, where's the relationship with God? Or even, where's the confidence that you would probably get from other men in your church who are Godly if you had mentorship? Where is that? Sorry, that was clarification. Well, I didn't, okay. I'm just going to share from an older woman maybe perspective because I know we have different ages at this table. So I just think, I think if as a girl who's, you know, wanting to be pursued, I think when it comes to finances specifically, I think it really communicates, at least not to be harsh, but it just maybe communicates just the level of maturity, you know, because I think as someone who's in their 30s, I think... That is not a bad thing. Yeah. But I guess it's just, if it's a man who is at that age and still not able to really provide for himself, much less anyone else, I think that can have potential red flags, right? So I think it's different for, you know, the youth ministry, for those who are under 30, for those who are still working and trying to figure things out, I think there's more ability to grow together, to learn together, to figure out things together, especially finances, since you probably are just starting your career, or maybe you're still in school or whatever the case may be. But if you're over a particular age range, I think there should be some level where this kind of thought process has already happened. And one thing that I've actually noticed with men that, you know, that I have seen is that they don't stop thinking about family planning until they actually start dating, which I think is kind of, you know, maybe one of the men can talk about that, because to me, I don't understand why that happens. Why do you wait until you date? Well, I don't know. I think it's maybe considered to be... Honestly, like, it's the adventure of it all. It's the idea where it's like, currently, how I was thinking of it is, hey, I am working. I'm doing all that I'm needing to do, growing in every area that I want. But in some ways, it's saying, I'm being obedient to God. I'm living and serving within the church. And again, I'm thinking of my context. These are the things in which I like. These are the things in which I want to do. Okay, well, I'll continue to do these things, right? And as... I think some of them actually would use the biblical sense of Genesis, where they're showing that Adam is to work the field. And then they also have Eve that comes to be to help him work. So in a sense, there is a level where they're thinking, hey, what has God called me to do to glorify in every aspect? I will try to continue to do. And someone comes alongside to support not just my immediate work and stuff, but the very thing in which God has called them to do. And so, it does look outwardly like, oh, they're just focusing on their job. They're just focusing on their job. But I think a more healthier version, and this is sometimes what's been taught to men, is to say, focus on God. Focus on glorifying God, being obedient to God. And when they're doing that, then Paul rightly states, you know, your responsibilities become even more when you're married. And it's not to say it's bad, but it is to say that I am trying to be obedient to God over all that He has given me. And sometimes it should be viewed as, she is needing to come alongside me, and my calling would maybe grow and change to look something different than I view it to be. But, and again, I'm thinking from my experience, I think that's one of those areas where it's to say, hey, I'm trying to live obediently to God, but, you know, I want to be allowed to make mistakes. I want to be allowed to sit well, if that makes sense. This lady here has got something to say to me, so keep me in prayer. I might be able to answer that. Jamie, would you like to go first, or would you like me to go first? I'm questioning my thoughts, but I would. Okay. Yeah. All right. It kind of backtracks a little bit, but it ties into the financial and all of that. Why don't you go first, and I'll follow up. Okay. So I think, and I'm just going to be blunt, but like, not to call out either gender, but I think half the reason that men face insecurity is because of the high pressure and the high expectations that women put on men. But I feel like, honestly, like we're half the problem. Like, just to be pretty honest. Because here's what happens, right? So we get, like, this is even before we meet a guy. Like, we set, like, look in any girl's notes app on their phone. I guarantee you they've got a standards list. Okay? I guarantee you they're like, he's got to be X feet tall. He's got to have this color. He's got to have this color hair. He's got to make this much money. He's got to drive this kind of car. Like, he's got to do all these kind of things, right? And so I feel like us women are looking at it from a societal standpoint of, okay, he has to make this much money in order to support me. And then that's putting pressure on the man to feel like, okay, if I don't have my life together, then, like, what, then where is, like, at a certain level, if I don't have my life together, like, financially and things like that, then, like, where do I find my worth? And obviously, like, that's going to come from God and that's not going to come from worldly things like money and things like that. And so I think that, like, us women have really, like, obscured the idea of what's important in a relationship and setting these high standards that are society-based and not actually what the Bible says that a man of God is supposed to look like. And so I think that is kind of, like, half the problem that we're facing. Now, I would like to, I especially agree, and I would like to add on to that because I think that it could be a tendency to see biblical manhood as a, or what it looks like to be a godly man, as separate from finances and financial stability. I think it's a matter of kind of what we talked about either before we started recording or as we were recording. Like, we get this picture of, or we get instruction and guidance from godly people in the church or messages that we hear talking about what a godly man should look like. And I do believe that stability or things of that nature are talked about, which is right, right? You need, you do need levels of stability. However, my question would be, do we see that from a biblical context? And I think that you're right, too, of there is a part that we play in it. Not to just say, like, we should be provided for it. The man should be provided for it. He should be using his finances to the glory of God, which I think is more of what the thought should be. I don't think that if, I don't think that if a man doesn't make a certain amount of money at the time that I meet him, that that should be a, that that should be a deciding factor, necessarily. At least not at first. Like, my question would be, okay, what potential do I see in him? And not, I'm not talking about, like, your average Joe person, like, ah, yeah, he's all right. Like, I think I can work with this and, you know, we can go from there. But I think that there can be, I think that there can be a sense of fear or questioning, maybe from our parts, from women's parts, of it's good for me to be provided for. But when I see that a man is biblically following God, maybe he's on his way to a particular job. Not like, we're down in the dumps and we're being irresponsible already. But I think stewardship would be a really good example of the biblical context of what does financial stability look like. I don't think it has to be, you have to make X amount. There should be a reasonable, like, we've got to both be able to live, like, between what I make and what you make. I think it is about character and how I steward what I have. Biblical context. The, was it the servants working out in the field? One coin versus, one denarii versus many denarii. What did you do with it? Because you can have a man that makes $200,000 and you will squander it away like nobody's business. Doesn't know how to handle it. I could have lots of money coming out of my ears, but what are we using it for? Are you buying a car? Are you giving that money to someone or something? Are you saying, every day that I wake up, I am asking God or I have the mindset that I need to use my resources for the Lord, which includes my wife, but am I thinking with a biblical mindset? I may not have a particular job, but do I show potential in that? And even if it's, maybe I'm not at a, like, stepping stone point yet when I meet you. Here are my hopes and dreams. Here are the things that I want to work towards that maybe aren't here yet. Here's how I'm stewarding myself or here's where I know God has placed me right now. Like, okay, let's be honest. Maybe I work in a managerial position at Chick-fil-A right now. Here's how I'm stewarding this. Here's how I'm working towards that either. Like, because also wisdom would say, okay, do I have the resources at this moment to get married? But do I see potential in you and have I prayed about and do I see God's timing? Would you be willing to give me an opportunity? If we're working towards it and I say, hey, maybe I'm just not at the financial point. I'm going to keep working and this is what it's going to look like. Like, that could be a question. Not to say that everyone needs to look for a man who works at Chick-fil-A. It's a nice next avenue. But I think that the question of stewardship is more what should be looked at instead of what work does he do? Because if I looked at what kind of work someone does, sorry honey, I would not have picked someone who does your job. Like, that would not have been in my heart and my head. Like, someone who is in finances and retirement funding. Like, that's just not what I would have. It's not feeling. But there are so many other wonderful things about you that are not just your job. Stewardship was very clearly seen. Not just in the financial realm, but in other ways as well. There's a lot of things I just said. Stewardship and the question of stewardship and how he submits to the Lord in the midst of that and everything else would be the question. So, yeah. So, I think there's a lot of things that could be said. I mean, I appreciate your explanation. So, in addition to stewardship, obviously his integrity, his character, how he follows the Lord, how he submits to the Lord, his time in meditation with Christ, right? All of those things are incredibly important. But I guess just to really emphasize the stewardship, I think to Jamie's point about having a list. I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong with having a list, but I think it's a list that's reasonable. You know, because I think, again, you can't expect a 22-year-old to be where a 32-year-old should be. The two lists should not be the same. So, if you're dating and you're young, six figures shouldn't even be on your list. It's not feasible for most people, and I think that's an unrealistic expectation for these men, which is probably why they're feeling maybe that pressure. But someone who's older, like I said, since I'm in my 30s, if you don't have some sort of nesting egg at this point, what have you been doing? To me, it's just like these kinds of things. But if you're thinking, I want to have a family at some point, this is when the stewardship really comes in. Like, are you saving money? Are you starting to plan ahead? Are you looking to the future? I mean, I think Proverbs 31 talks about that. Well, it's really a woman, but she looks to the future, you know, and laughs. So, I think it's just like if you're being a good steward over your money and over your resources, then those are things that should be on your mind already. Again, to circle back to my previous point, don't wait until you start dating to start thinking about, oh, when am I going to start saving money? Right, right, right. I think what I was thinking is, okay, so example and question, essentially. If, and this can look like all different things, let's say maybe the guy doesn't have the job that I would think he would have at 30, but we've been saving like nobody's business. So, but I think that goes back to the stewardship and not just I want to prepare for a wife, I want to honor God with my finances, which I think is the most important thing. Because if I have a man who doesn't want to honor God with his finances, doesn't want to steward them well, and doesn't have all those characteristics and then relate to how I use my money, goodbye, Felicia. Get out. I don't want it. So, would it be safe to say that, of course, there are different things you've got to think about at different ages. But if you've got someone that doesn't exactly have the job that you would think or maybe even like we're still, and I say subpar with our finances, but like, okay, maybe I'm in a position, maybe I've either lost a job or maybe I started school late or maybe I didn't know what I wanted to do when I was 20 and now I'm working towards that. This is what I've been saving or this is how I'm doing this now. Could that be a potential consideration? Like, would that completely rule him out? Yes. Kind of to you. But it could be to anybody. I don't know. I'm sorry. Jamie, do you have the answer? Oh, okay. Well, I think, again, I think it depends on where you are in life, right? I think in everything. So, I think, you know, life story, struggles, what the Lord has brought us through, I mean, it's all unique to each of us. So, I think taking those into account is definitely important. But, I mean, just for example, as a person, like I'm 33. There is nothing wrong with being 33, Janay. Yeah, okay. But I bought my first house at 29. So, to me, you know, and that's not to flex or anything. I'm just saying, like, I was already thinking about my future when I was very young. You know, when I was 24, when I was 25, like, that's when I started planning. That's when I started saving. So, that's the thing. I think if women are doing it already at younger ages, why aren't the men also doing it at younger ages? That's what I'm saying. I think that would be a great question for Travis. No, no, no. Or for Matt. From a man's perspective, that would be a good question. Because it could be true. It could not be true. It could be true in different settings. It depends on who it is. Janay, please. No, I'd like him to answer this question first because I feel like my comment is going to sidetrack us off this question. So, I want the answer to this before I make my comment. So, let's do this. I will briefly answer, but what I think will better help you is having four men here to be able to give an elaborate discussion on the other side of it. Would that be something you'd be interested in hearing from? What? So, basically, having four men here can say, hey, this is the reason why the questions in which you have given from this podcast will be answered from that. Very decent. You have to tell each other to find out. So, here we go. So, here we go. Travis, you first. I think, I don't know, I guess sometimes men aren't, like, taught to think about those things. Like, what it looks like to begin to consider the future. I mean, I think there's aspects of, like, and that's a whole other discussion about discipleship and manhood and how to be taught being and stuff like that, but I think that's a factor where it's just, like, sometimes men just aren't taught how to do it and aren't taught what it means to grow up and look toward those things kind of deal. Yeah, I mean, it could be, like, a larger discussion, but I think a big part of it's just men not being taught how to be men, aren't being discipled and taught what it looks like to look forward to the future. What it looks like to look forward to the future, what it looks like to grow up, what it looks like to man up kind of deal. I mean, that's a whole, it could be a whole podcast in of itself about manhood and what it looks like to mature in that way, but I think that being a factor, not being taught that way, not being, you know, taught what it looks like to think toward that way and that kind of thing. All right. So, I'm going to provide a level of transparency through this. These guys are so giggly. Giggly girls. So, I'm going to actually provide a transparency through this. I don't think, and this is my, I guess there's a disagreement to it, is that, sorry, Jamie says men aren't being taught how to be men. Okay, Jasmine. All right. We are going to get into that a little bit, but before we get there, I actually would make the argument to say it's not men aren't being taught to be men. Men are taught from their fathers a specific way of how to be men from the communication given from their wives, mothers, fathers, whoever it may be, but what I'm saying is it's the society and what it's telling them, hey, you need to be equipped this way in order to grow from it. But that's more of a cultural influence versus it being a biblical one because sometimes biblically it just doesn't feel attractive. So, there are men that are very well done, are obedient, and so I think that's one of those areas that we would need to very much look into. So, you know what, let me ask Darren. Darren, here is a big question for you. Why are men not being treated the way to be men? Because they're acting like boys. They're acting like boys. Most of the time they're acting like they're 12 years old when they're 30. Oh, that's true. Sometimes that can happen. I've seen that happen. Not always. Now, here's what I really wanted to call about. I didn't get a chance to tell you after church or see you after church, but the ending on Who Can Satisfy was fired. Sorry, that's another credit. You're on a podcast, by the way. That was amazing. I'm glad to hear it. We're going to feature you on this podcast. It's called Let's Talk About It. I love you, guys. Love you. Talk to you later. Talk to you later. Bye, Darren. Bye, Darren. There's no establishment in church because people have to perpetuate it. All right, so Jasmine, do you have something you want to say? I think I really agree with what everybody said with men not really getting to learn what it means to be a man and also just in a biblical way. I feel like from my experience, a lot of guys, they learn how to be like, oh, this is what a guy should be like, but not how a biblical guy should be like. So when it comes to relationships, sometimes the woman feels like, in a way, I have to teach or mother a guy at some point. So it gets frustrating for a woman because I would like us both to grow together. As a woman, I'm here to aid, I'm here to assist, but in some ways, the guy needs to take the aid as well. I feel like in some ways, sometimes guys don't want to admit that they need growing and they don't want to accept the help because they want to do it on their own. For a woman in a relationship, that can get really frustrating just to see my partner fall, but they don't want me to help them. So I feel like for me, that's like the struggle. But wait, wait, hold on, wait. I am trying to be a man. I'm trying to do what is right. What is wrong with me trying to be a man? Being dependent on other men or being dependent on anybody is not seen as a cute look, and so therefore, you don't do it. I'm a peacock. You've got to let me fly, Jamie. Come on. I've been flying enough today. To tie everything together culturally speaking and society speaking and biblically speaking, I think that like we were talking about the list that women make and all these things, that's great to have a list, but it needs to align with Scripture. I have standards. But realize that your standards are not God's standards. But God has set standards, and it's clear as day, and it's in the Word of God. And if you're not getting your list of standards from the Word of God, then you're creating your own standards. And if you're creating your own standards, then that's coming from a cultural and societal standpoint because we are fallen human beings. And so I think we are all putting these lists together of these societal standards, and the problems that biblical women are having in finding a man is half not the man's fault. But it's not necessarily the man's fault. We're biblical women searching for a biblical man with cultural standpoints. That is the problem. We need to come around more often. All right, this is not the Red Table. This is not a Red Table talk, guys. Mmmmm. Men need to, I feel like more men, especially biblical men and people at church, they need to disciple more men. Because I feel like it is very, very insightful and beneficial for me to be discipled by older women and just to get insights, get advice. And I feel like it will be very beneficial for guys to do that too because I don't know a lot of those groups, especially at our church. All right, well, shameless plug to you. We're doing an FTC Tampa talk. Do you think... Yes, the Uncensored Pre-Church Podcast. Check out the Uncensored Pre-Church Podcast. Do you think there is a growing men's discipleship happening within FTC? You can be honest. Look. Do you think there is a growing men's... Yeah, from the men's perspective. I would say it depends. Because I think that the men that are intentionally looking for it, they find it. I think the men who are just coming in just to receive the Word and read, they don't. So, I think it's... But I think that could be said about women as well. I mean, I think it really could be said about anybody. So, I don't know how men build their friendships. I mean, I'm a girl. I would say it's similar to how women... Because we can talk about hair or someone's makeup and instantly make a connection. I don't know. Maybe it's football or sports or something for y'all. But I guess it's just a matter of if you're actually willing to be plugged in and actually engage in the church, I think it's available as long as you're looking for it and you're putting yourself in those places to find it. You know, honey, that's another great subject for a podcast. What does Christian community look like in the church right now? And is that good? Shouldn't look different is my question. Because it's one thing. I'm not... And please don't be kidding. I'm not disagreeing with what you said. Absolutely. Because friendships are good, right? Because I've been to some churches that are like, community, community. And community is crap. And we don't know how to properly build discipleship community that grows us towards each other in a biblical, godly way. Because I can talk to you about your hair all day. And this is not a bad thing. But does it grow me as long as I'm in Christ? Again, not a bad thing. But what is our ratio of like general talk to how are you actually? And please don't spare any detail. I want to hear about you. Which I think with Ben is also great. Like, sure, true connections. We want to have good connections with each other. But how deep are those connections? Because that's also another question. Like, what does my circle look like? Do I hang out with, like, the Joe Schmoes of the church most of the time? Do I ever actually go and speak to the pastor? Do I say, hey, pastor, I am struggling with this vulnerability. And I need wise men and wise counsel around me. Or, you know, they could be younger. They don't have to necessarily be older. But am I seeking out people who are different than me, older than me, wiser than me, that I don't always agree with? But that are giving me things to think about so that I will show change and growth in Christ and development. So, very good point and very good question, Janae, because we should have a podcast about that too. All right. Jazmyn, we're going to let you wrap this up with your last statement regarding the Let's Talk About It podcast. We're at almost the one-hour mark. Wow. We have lots to talk about. I think to wrap it up, and this is also a shameless plug, Discipleship Group. Here at FBC Tampa, we are doing these things called Discipleship Group, which are so good. And yesterday at the Women's Gathering, the Women's Brunch, we actually talked about Discipleship Group. And that was actually so rewarding and just to spread the awareness to people that these are things at the church that are happening. Because with Discipleship Group, it is a more intimate group. It is about three to five of the same gender where you go around, you talk about life, you do scripture reading, you do accountability, and that is your life group. And those are the people that you pour into and you also get poured into. And for me, I am in my third Discipleship Group at this church now, and it has benefited me so much from both older women and also younger women to me. And I feel like both men and women need that group because at church, you can get poured into by going to Wednesday night classes. You can go to big church. You can go to core group. But those are not instances that you will have deep conversations that you won't be like, oh, I'm struggling with this right now. Can you pray for me in this way? You need more smaller, intimate settings that can actually help you deeper. And for me, when I am struggling with something, I tell my girls, hey, please pray for me. And there will be people in my group that's like, hey, I'm praying for you. These are scriptures that I read today that I find really encouraging and I want to send it to you. And I feel like both men and women could really benefit from it. So if you're at FTC listening to this podcast, go talk to Pastor Darren about DGroup because we will get you plugged in.