Episode 6 with Awa

Julie Dubing hosts ChangeJobs podcast featuring Awa Tal, a change practitioner specializing in communication, stakeholder mobilization, and employee engagement. Awa aims to ensure inclusive change experiences, drawing parallels between managing stakeholders at work and parenting. Awa transitioned into cybersecurity by seizing an unexpected opportunity during a project. She emphasizes the evolving nature of cybersecurity and the need for a continuous change management mindset. Awa leverages her communication expertise to simplify technical concepts, using stories and analogies to engage stakeholders effectively. The discussion highlights the importance of translating complex ideas into relatable terms and fostering understanding through storytelling in both cybersecurity and change management. Okay, so hi, everyone, and welcome to ChangeJobs, a podcast to navigating your change management career. My name is Julie Dubing, and today we are here with Awa Tal, who is a change practitioner from La Belle France. Within change management, she specializes in communication strategies, stakeholder mobilization, and also employee engagement. Her mission is to make change smoother and also more inclusive. She wants to make sure everyone feels heard, valued, and also motivated throughout the journey, and she will always approach challenges with a smile. She is also a working mom of three little ones, just like me, so shout out to all the working parents listening in. I'm curious to see what your view is on how you combine, or I would say apply some of the stakeholder engagement techniques that you apply to your kids to leadership and maybe also vice versa. So happy to have you on the show, Awa. Thank you for being here. It's nice to see what, yeah, just virtual connections and the community of LinkedIn brought us, because a little bit of background, I had to take a work trip to Paris for a leadership development course, and combining it with my podcast, I'm like, oh, it would be so cool if I can talk to a change practitioner from France, and LinkedIn landed me with Awa, and I just reached out, and we kind of hit it off, so thanks for being here and being open to the conversation. Thank you, Dee. Thanks for having me. So you're doing change management, but you specialize into the cyber industry. How did you get there? Honestly, it was not planned at all. It was a matter of opportunity. I was working at a client, finishing my contract, my engagement with him. I was working on a post-merger integration, a big one, and so we had a kind of a large change team, and the person in charge of the cyber program just went into a sick leave, and because my contract was ending, they were trying to find a way to keep me in, and they said, hey, we have a cyber assignment for you. Are you interested? And I was like, I don't know anything about cyber, and I said, that's fine, you'll learn on the way, and just like that. Very nice. Yeah, sometimes opportunity, you know, or just coping, where you don't expect it, actually. So leaving, moving, it's a matter of opportunity. And so how long have you been specializing in cyber then? I would say three years-ish, you know, and still, I mean, I'm on cyber, but it's a field where you always learn, so it's also hard to say that you are like a specialist, you know, an expert on the matter, you have experience, but we are in a moment, I think, in Israel, where we all learn a lot of things with all the different cyber attacks, attackers trying to get into companies in so many different ways, so it's definitely concerning. But I think it's also a matter of philosophy, because when you work in cyber, you have kind of a new way of thinking security, a new way of thinking things, even change management, you know, which doesn't really have an end with cyber, you know, because you are constantly learning, so the workforce is also constantly learning, so there's kind of this ball rolling all the time. Yeah. And you're just going through that transition unknown, somehow, but still being the guide and having some light in front of you so that you can give some guidance to your people. Yeah, that's interesting, because I come from, and I think, yeah, you as well, like consulting the client facing side, where there is an end to a project, and you just apply all the different levers of like a typical change management strategy, but are you saying that because this area is constantly evolving, and you're working with the people, it's almost like they have to adopt a change management mindset, because things are constantly growing, and there is no end stop? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. In cyber, we have, there's a mantra saying that cyber is everyone's responsibility. Yeah. So it's not only the responsibility of the IT team, because no matter the tool that we have, you know, it can be super effective with the best technology. Yeah. If a human clicks on the wrong link, or is revealing information, then the company is at risk. So it's that mindset to be, as a person, as a person in that organization, I'm responsible. I have, like, my part of ownership to take, and I need to be, as well, agile in a way that, again, attackers are trying to get in all the time, so what's trending? What should I be looking out for? It's just like your house. Think about, think about your house, right? You have your front door. The front door is locked. Great. Is it enough? No. Probably you're going to have a doorbell with a camera. Probably you'll have a dog as well. And if there is some robberies in the neighborhood, you're going to adjust to that, right? Or if there is roads that aren't safe in your city, you're going to avoid those roads. So it's just constant adaptation to your landscape, to your environment. And the particularity of that is that it's not something that you do at work, and then you close your computer and you're done. It's in our life. We're receiving text messages from people saying that we're receiving parcels and we should enter our details, right? We're obviously receiving phone calls from people trying to get information or trying to have some, you know, wire transfer from us. So it's something that is also useful in people's lives. So it's way beyond work. It's yeah, a way of thinking security. Be careful, challenging the people calling you, messaging you, like who are you, all the time, you know, and not just because you say it's you that it's actually really you. Yeah, that's good storytelling there as well. Like it's a good way to introduce it to people or make them aware of the risk. When I looked at your profile, communications is also something that you're specialized in. How would you say that that helps in your change management projects? I think it does, because it can be boring. I mean, cyber. When you say cyber, people are like, oh, this is technical. This is this is a boring topic, right? Like it's not something you're not going to shine if you're at a dinner with your friends. But people may be working in luxury industries, selling you some dreams, you know, they're going to shine, right? So I think calm is important because you have the ability to build stories. You have the ability to build analogies for people to get what you're trying to say, you know, like, you know, like the house. I love that one. Yeah, like the house, because people do understand those concepts. But if you talk about identity access management, SOC, like what's that? You know, it's quite technical. So and I'm not technical. And I'm super proud of that, by the way, because when I'm talking to the teams, explain me very simply, what are we trying to do? What's that? You know? Yeah. And I'm forcing them to also have that exercise of simplifying things and having very like just explain things simply for people to get it. And I'm trying as well to translate it for so that people can also understand it. With stories, with analogies, with fun words, you know, trying to make some jokes, using some memes, trying to get social media codes into that just to get the topic nice and fun and not boring. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I did a lot of digital implementations and tech implementations and something that I did really like was the same as you, I'm not technical, but I find it interesting, so I want to learn. I would sit down with the engineers or like the coders and really ask them, like, what is it that you do? And they would start with, be like, okay, no, like, don't know anything. So you've got to start really simply. And yeah, it very often made them also proud of what they were doing. Yeah. What you're saying, I never really thought about it, but now I'm realizing it's good for them. And it's good for us too, to be forced out of your own bubble and be like, how do you explain this to someone who has absolutely no clue? The same with change management. I mean, we can say, oh, yeah, I know what you're doing. But a lot of the time when I tell people I'm doing change management, they're like, what does that even mean? What is that? Yeah. Yeah. Like, even what are you doing? You just try to share your title and people are like, what's that? You know? Yeah. I'm kind of reluctant to say what I'm actually doing. But in those words, I'm a change manager. Now, it doesn't ring a bell to people, so I need to build a sentence. Yeah. I'm accompanying people to go through a transition. Oh, people do get it. Right. But change managers, on the other hand, they are talking with, like, the professional bubble. And sometimes even in companies, people are like, what is that job? You know? Right. And I think it's a challenge because depending on the environment in which you are, like, sometimes you have companies facing challenges, you know, so cutting workforce and so on. Yeah. And you may need to have a rationale for you being in the company. Like, what's your job? Right. So you need to show them what are you bringing on the table? What's your value? Yeah. You see? So I'm trying not to, depending on the content, depending on the client, depending on the company, just trying to explain. It has happened to me to do some presentations with change management. And I'm using very simple analogies again. Kitchen. I love the kitchen analogy, which I typically use. And I tell people the project manager will build a plan of the kitchen and so on. But the change manager will help you to find the sugar, will make sure that we're doing all the work at the right time and not when the kids are going, you know, when not when the kids are around, for example, all those stuff for people. Oh, yeah. So because no one will change the kitchen without talking to the family, right? Who will wake up like that and say, we're going to change the kitchen? And the kids will come like, what are you guys doing? You know, the mom will say, I'm using that kitchen. So why am I not aware of this? You see? And for people, it does make sense. It does make sense. And you will not ask the workers coming, you know, to fix the plumbing and the stuff to keep you aware of that. You need to have some conversation, where will be the sink? Oh, I need this space, you know, for, I don't know, whatever, pasture material. And people are like, oh, yeah, I do get it now. You know, so always trying to translate. You don't know what that is. That's fine. Let me explain. After the kitchen analogy, you tell me you don't need me, then I'm not sure I can do something for you. Right. Yeah. I hear that sometimes they confuse change management with project management as well. And the analogy that I do is with project management, they build the structure and they build you a house. But change management makes it feel like a home. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, yeah, we make it, we make it cozy. And inviting. Yeah. And cozy and adjusted for you, you know. If you're a tall person, we should be happy to have a very small bed or just, you know, no closet for your clothes or, but yeah, you will have a roof, right, because you have the p.m. But you need a little bit more. Right. Okay. So it seems like you use quite some concepts of storytelling and that resonates pretty well with people. Yeah. People, people to get it. And I mean, sometimes I think the risk is also because when you are always working with technical people, you do get the jargon. So you do. Right. Right. Right. You know, they're talking about the stuff and you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you always need to challenge yourself. Yes. You need to step back. Proofread. Will the HR understand what I'm saying? Will the assistant understand what I'm saying? So, you know, send yourself for testing. Oh, hey, I have this post that I want to write. Like, do you understand? Do you think it's too technical? Get the feedback as well, because the more you are also in that bubble, the riskier it is as well for you to be perceived as someone technical, which you don't want to be. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 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