Haedin Leland _interview.mp3

The podcast guest discusses their upbringing in a progressive environment that emphasized equality, kindness, and acceptance of all genders and sexualities. They recall learning about LGBTQ topics in high school and how their views evolved over time. They mention confronting biases, like initially not fully understanding the Black Lives Matter movement. Despite not holding biases about gender and sexuality themselves, they acknowledge witnessing others who do and choosing not to engage in confrontations for safety reasons, preferring to show allyship in other ways. Welcome to my podcast. I'm here with my boyfriend. Ben, say hi. Hello. Okay. First question is, growing up, what were the ideas you heard about gender roles and sexuality? Whether it was from your parents, at school, etc. I was always taught that you should care about everybody, no matter who they are. All opinions are valid, unless you're a horrible person. And growing up through the Blaine School District, they really heavily reinforced ideas that all people are equal, and everyone deserves a shot, and you need to be kind to everybody. We always had some sort of assembly every month, talking about different groups of minorities, and had lots of anti-bullying themes. So, it was pretty heavily reinforced from a young age. And you went to church as a kid, right? Yeah. How did that also impact the opinions and views of the people around you? Did you notice anything that was more reinforced or less reinforced? It doesn't have to be anything in particular, but just pertaining to gender and sexuality. Not that I'm suggesting anything, but churches are pretty progressive these days. No, there wasn't really any differences growing up in the church. Again, it was mainly just always care for each other equally. That's good. How did those opinions from others make you feel about gender and sexuality? How did you feel about witnessing PDA from queer couples? It's fine. I don't mind at all. I mean, there's cisgender couples we're going to be doing all the time. I don't understand why gay couples can't. Yeah, fair enough. What about gender? Not in the context of PDA, but how did those opinions from those around you influence you thinking about traditional gender roles? Think of it as your family, I guess. Growing up, I didn't know anything about that sort of thing. I didn't know that there was... Well, I knew baseline, but I didn't really know anything about all the different ranges of sexuality up until about high school. There was never really something that was mentioned a whole lot, ever. When I got my first phone, I remember scrolling through Instagram and all those different apps and kind of learning about stuff as I went. Just kind of not actively searching it, but just learning as I went. I did end up learning a lot. High school was around the time where previous classes, previous years of freshmen, sophomores, seniors, juniors, they didn't get education on that. We were kind of the first to get education on that. I remember thinking that that was pretty cool that Blaine was trying to make the switch into really making that acceptable. When did you first realize that people experience the world differently based on gender and sexual identity? Was it around that time? No, that was something that my mom kind of sent home in regards to gender. Not necessarily sexuality, but in regards to gender, she always made it very clear that women have a harder time in the workforce and just in general living situations. I don't think it was pretty progressive growing up then, at least from other experiences I've heard of our age. How have your own interpersonal relationships with people shaped the way you think about feminism, queerness, and equality? Can I hear that again? How have your own interpersonal relationships with people shaped the way you think about feminism, queerness, and equality? Um... I would say around freshman year, everybody was kind of like blowing it off because it was all so new to everybody. I mean, small town, didn't really learn about it a whole lot. So everybody kind of brushed it off a little bit at first. Just learning about the wide, broad-band spectrum of everything. And... I think around junior year is when everybody else started to kind of accept it. I was kind of part of a crowd that always cared, but didn't care. Explain that to me. What do you mean? Like, I care about everybody's thoughts and opinions and how they want to be, but I don't care how they express them. They can do what they want and I'm going to be okay with it. Okay. Have there been any expressions of that that have made you emotional or anything like that? Like, for me personally, I didn't really... Like, I remember a very pivotal moment where I went to a poetry reading with my grandma in Edmonds. It was actually like last year. But it was live poetry reading and a lot of the kids were middle schoolers and they were really good. Like, this one girl, she was like, I think in sixth grade. And she was very eloquent and talked about gender and sexuality and achieving as a girl in STEM. And it made me cry. Have you had any moments like that? No, not really. I'm not an emotional person, a very emotional person in that way. Like, if you tell me your life story and it's sad, I'll be like, I'll go down. But I'm not... So you have sympathy and empathy, but not really a very emotional reactor. No, because I just think it's because I don't know what it's like to live in that particular way. I don't really know if there's a way for me to fully understand that. That's a good awareness to have. Um... Have you ever realized that you have or have held biases about gender or sexuality in the past? Can I have an example? Um... Not necessarily about gender or sexuality, but I remember way back when the Black Lives Matter movement was really gaining traction during COVID. I didn't get it, so I would say all lives mattered. And then I understood it, and then I was like, oh, dang. Okay, they're right. Like, have you ever had to confront anything about yourself like that? Um... Because while my motive was good, it was still not a good outcome. How so? Because saying all lives matter negates the fact that Black people have, like you said, experienced the world very differently from me. And have different... Different... Intersectional factors that play a huge role in their life and the way that they're able to succeed and move through the world on a daily basis. So saying all lives matter really negated that, because at the time, we were really trying to fight against police brutality, which was statistically against a lot of Black people. So saying all lives matter really kind of erased the message that they do experience systemic oppression and inequality, especially in situations with high stress and high... Tension. Okay, that's a good example. Can you restate the question? Um... Have you ever realized that you held or have held biases about gender or sexuality in the past? Whether it's small or big. I mean... No, not particularly. I guess, for me, it would probably... The only one that I can really think of would probably be the same one that you just stated. Though... I still don't quite fully understand why people got so up in arms about when you would say all lives matter. Because while I understand that the movement was about Black culture and the way that they face oppression, I still think that police brutality isn't limited to Black people in this country. It's also any other race as well. Not the white race so much as, you know, maybe Asian or Hispanic cultures. There's still probably high rates for them as well. I do understand that it is primarily Black. And it makes sense to me when people explain it in the way of statistically it is Black people that are... Brutalized? Is that the right term? By police? Sure. Sure. But I never really understood... Why people got so angry about that fact. Now, it's not a fact. It's more of an opinion, but... Um... Well, that's off topic. That was just an example. Okay. However... The reason people got so upset is because it ignores the fact that... It's disproportionately Black people. A lot of systemic inequality is disproportionately Black people because we've seen them as significantly less while they contribute so heavily to our country for so long. And whether people realize that or not, those biases still exist. And... It can be something as small as an altercation happening and a police officer immediately assuming that the Black guy is guilty based off his own worldview and statistical analysis of his experiences as a police officer. Which doesn't make it good or any better. It just shows that there's a problem. That makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah. But, going back to the question... Have you ever realized that you held or have biases about gender and sexuality? No, not really at all. I mean... Never really. I always saw other students having biases and whatnot. And I've seen other people outside of school as well holding those biases. But it never really made sense to me as to why. Did you ever question them about it? Did you ever say anything? Yeah, when we were in school. Yeah, I did. I wouldn't necessarily call those kinds of people my friends. More so acquaintances. Whether we'd be at lunch or whatnot. I'd kind of question them and be like, why do you care? And they never really had a good answer at all. But when I'm out in public now, it's like... I'm kind of part of the problem when I just walk by. Because I'd rather not deal with somebody being that aggressive. Aggressive how? Aggressive in the way where they might be using slurs or openly slandering somebody of the LGBTQ community. Because I know from personal experience that sometimes those people can be very irrational. And they can get aggravated very easily. So it's just not worth my time. Okay. I can see it from a safety standpoint. Okay. Do you think that there is a way for you to... contribute allyship in a different way that isn't so confrontational? I mean, you already said that you don't hold biases and stuff like that. So I guess that's a way. But is there any actions that you would take that would maybe not include so much confrontation that would prove allyship, I guess? Or show allyship? I mean... I mean... I would... I mean, me personally, probably not. When it comes to... Are you talking about when dealing with somebody in public? Not in public, but like interpersonal relationships. Oh, okay. Well... Yeah. I mean, as far as that goes, probably just... affirming them. If they obviously feel the need to be affirmed. If they're having a bad time or whatnot. But... me personally... I don't like to make a big deal about somebody if they are... a different sexuality or gender than I am. Because, in my opinion, it doesn't matter. You're just like I am. You just happen to... be into different things. So it's not like it's... needing to be brought up all the time. Okay. But can you see why someone would want to bring it up all the time? Yeah, I definitely could. I just think... probably if the situation calls for it. Because... like I said, the way I think about it is just... you're a normal person just like me. And you have thoughts and feelings. If you're talking about your own experiences... to me... then yeah, I'll affirm and talk with them about it. That's okay. But... I'm just talking more like... if somebody's bringing it up all the time, it's just like why? Yeah, I guess. Yeah. In what ways do you think that being white or cisgendered impacts how you live and experience daily life? Well... I mean, I'm a white cisgender male, so... from what I've been told... I'm incredibly privileged. Um... which makes sense to me. You know? But I've never... this is the way I've lived my entire life, so I don't know. I don't know what it's like to be on the other side of the stick. So I can't really make a comment on that per se. It's hard for me to be able to live in the shoes of somebody else or... of somebody of another nationality or gender... or sexuality, because I'm not... I've lived this way for so long, it's just difficult to tell. Well, yeah. I mean... Yeah. But... do you think that there are... any... advantages... or disadvantages to the way that you live life because of your intersectionality? That kind of goes back to what I'm saying. It's just, I'm not really... I'm not really sure... Can I have an example of what... one of those might be? Um... Sure. A more extreme example would probably be... not having to worry about your safety at protests, if you decided to go to a protest, or it could be not having to worry about being paid significantly less by your employer and not knowing just because you are a woman or transgender or you are gay. Or bisexual. Very outwardly. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Well then, let me frame it like this. Do you... think that there are systemic disadvantages for people who aren't cisgendered or white or male? Well, yeah, sure. I guess it just depends on where you're at in the world. Yeah. I mean, in the United States. That's what I was going to say. Yeah, we'll keep it in a small frame. I suppose, it just kind of depends. Because I'm sure if you're in Portland, Oregon, you're probably not going to be discriminated against as heavily as you would if you were living in Houston, Texas. Mm-hmm. So, there surely is, most definitely, discrimination against people in that way. But not in every city. Not in every case, I think. Well, let me rephrase that. Because I'm sure there's always going to be a... Let me rephrase that. Because I'm sure there's always going to be somebody who's bigoted, even in... I mean, that's usually where they reside, is in the most powerful positions, unfortunately. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah. People are... But that's besides the point. Because people are definitely getting discriminated against all the time. Yeah. I guess that was more of my question. Are you... Do you recognize that people have severe disadvantages or advantages based on their intersectionality? Especially if you're a gender and sexuality. Yeah, for sure. Okay. What do you think that mass divinity would look like in a world free of gender norms and power imbalances? That's a good one. Because I honestly have no clue. What would you think an expression of masculinity would be in places that don't have gender norms or power imbalances? Are we talking about masculinity where there are still people that want to be the provider? Is that what your term of masculinity is? Not entirely, no. Okay. I think that... Are you saying in a world where none of this, where it doesn't matter at all? Yeah. I think about disillusionment from the nuclear family or from the American dream. What if that didn't exist at all? What if our country's opinions about gender and sexuality didn't exist at all? Because we really kind of did found the idea of the nuclear family. Um... That's a tough one. Because... It can be many different expressions too. It doesn't have to be macro expressions. Yeah, it's just hard to sort of imagine a place like that. Okay, well then let's talk about how you would express masculinity in a world like that. Don't think too hard about masses. Think about you. I don't know if much would change about me personally. Okay. Because I don't really... I'm not sure if I... hold on to the same values. I mean, of course I want to provide for those I love. That might still pertain in a masculinity setting in a world where none of that matters. But that's more or less a me thing, I think, than anything else. Okay. What about in the gender spectrum? What do you mean? How would... Do you think masculinity would look the same if the gender spectrum was more widely accepted? Do you think maybe there wouldn't be so much display of toxic masculinity? I feel like in the media today there's a lot of... Um... Not try-hards. Try-hards is the wrong word. But people that are so hyper-masculine that it's like... almost... insufferable? Which sounds really mean, but I really mean kind of... in a way that you can tell they're insecure about their masculinity. So you're saying, like, the world, if that didn't exist? Mm-hmm. Um... I don't... I think we would have a lot less... Well, we would definitely have, like, way, way less issues, like... things like the gender pay gap probably wouldn't exist. Because the reason that exists, I'm not speaking on factual terms because I don't know. This is just what I feel. Men have... propagated the whole gender pay gap. So... things like that probably would not exist. Because there wouldn't be the need for a man to feel like he is higher than. Yeah. Okay. Um... Imagine a future where everyone's sexuality and gender are respected without question. What would that look like on a daily basis? So, like, instead of having the school assemblies and having to have these conversations, what do you think it would look like inherently? If our society was like that. Well, I'd like to say that everybody would respect each other, but people are always going to find reasons to hate one another. So... Usually, but it's human nature. Yeah. To compete. So even if... that was widely accepted, I think we just probably wouldn't have issues with it anymore. But people would probably still be jerks to one another all the time. Yeah, they probably would still be jerks to one another all the time. But, like, what in a daily experience would change, do you think? It can be minor, it can be large, it can be... Going back to pay gap where it's, like, not even a concept anymore and people don't have to worry about, you know, how much they're getting paid in comparison to a male, white counterpart. Right. Well, do you think that there would be more job security or... I mean, all issues would theoretically disappear at that point. I mean, yeah, like, pay gap, gender pay gap wouldn't exist, workplace discrimination regarding that wouldn't exist anymore. I mean, I think everybody would get along a heck of a lot better. Yeah. I think for sure that, like, we would see professions change, too. I think that nurses wouldn't be a female-led profession, teachers wouldn't be a female-led profession. We would probably see more stay-at-home dads. Sure. I mean, yeah, the list kind of goes on and on for things like that that I could think of. I mean... And instead of having maternity leave, you would just have parental leave, you know. Yeah. That sort of thing. What do you think one thing that should change would be able to make that happen? What's one minor thing that we can do now to reduce the overwhelm systemic inequality that people of different genders and sexualities face? I mean, a minor thing is kind of hard to... Well, I mean, like, butterfly effect sort of thing, you know. Um... I'm not really sure, because it seems like everybody's trying a whole lot right now. I don't... I'm not really sure of what could change, because it seems like everybody's really trying to push for diversity and respect, but there's a particular crowd of people that doesn't seem to care, and it doesn't seem like they have anything to want to lose or change anytime soon. So I'm not really... Can I have an example? Um... Well... Unfortunately, it just got done away with, that DEI would be a great idea to reinstate. As much as people say that it was not effective, it was, because that's what creates diversity in a workplace. Because that's what creates diversity in a workplace. So, like, something like that. That's a good one. Or I think that another example, which is more... more focused scope, but I think that dads should be given more consideration in court cases with child custody. I think that would change a lot of people's outcomes. I feel like the courts... Well, statistically, actually, courts in child custody cases often favor the mother, when in reality, a lot larger percentage of fathers are much more well-equipped to take care of the children. But for whatever reason, the mother wins. I'm not saying majority, but I'm saying a larger percentage is given credit for. That would probably change a lot of people's outcomes, because those kids wouldn't end up in homes where they're neglected or abused or not provided well for because they would be with their fathers and maybe be lacking a mom, but still have a supportive environment that would differ from one that they would end up in with their mothers. Yeah. I don't know. It's just kind of hard to think of a minor thing that... Because I live in a pretty... It doesn't have to be minor. I was just kidding. Yeah, sure, sure. It's just I live in a kind of a closed-box world. And it's hard to sort of think about what might positively affect a group of different people than I. Yeah. I mean, another example on a smaller scale would be that I... I have a family friend who, instead of referring to inanimate objects as he, we're automatically referring to animals as he. She refers to everything as she. That's a very minor way of protesting, but that's her way of protesting the patriarchy and traditional gender roles. I mean, it doesn't work for everyone, but it's what works for her. That's her personal form of protest and making a change in her daily life. I guess just... allowing... I'm not sure how, but allowing more opportunity for everybody in the workforce. So allowing people to take up space. Yeah, sure, because... work is where everybody spends most of their lives. So if you start including diversity in the workplace, naturally it's going to spread. Yeah. So, like, in conference meetings and stuff like that, maybe women are more... apprehensive about speaking up about their opinion on a certain model or... concept at work. So, like, diversifying the workplace will hopefully get rid of something like that? Yeah. Um... That's all the questions I have. Do you have any flourishing thoughts... about... how to make things more equitable or how to raise awareness about... systemic oppression regarding gender norms or sexual inequality? Um... I think that... in order to start inspiring change... I think that people who want to cause change need to start being a little bit... nicer in the ways that they go about it, because I see all the time... on... social media platforms, I see somebody that's wanting to inspire change, but they let the other party get to them, and then they started... getting disgruntled or angry because they probably just didn't understand why somebody could be so... ignorant. Mm-hmm. And... in the end, it just ends up making them look bad. Okay. Well, with those conversations, how do you do that? I think you just need to be kind and courteous. And if somebody's just obviously being blatantly ignorant on purpose... then... you might just have to cut ties with that person. I mean, yeah. At least in the moment... so that you can take a second to rearrange. Because I feel heavily that that hinders diversity... and working towards a goal... when... people start disagreeing and then people start arguing. Yeah. But how do you do that in a conversation and... talking with someone like that? How do you de-escalate the conversation and also try to bring up points about gender and sexuality? What are ways that you can de-escalate the conversation while also making it progressive? I mean... Because that is a form of change that could have been mentioned earlier. Yeah. Yeah. I think that everybody needs to just kind of... not people who are pushing for equality. Well, actually, yeah. People who are pushing for equality. I think they need to take... not everybody, but some people need to take a chill pill and not be so upfront about it with somebody who doesn't understand these values and ideas. Okay. Well, how do you do that? Maybe you don't... Maybe you don't... If somebody's, you know, starting to get kind of... jerky with you while you're talking about the topic, maybe take a step back and say, you know, hey, you know, this is, you know, important to me. It's important that we start pushing for diversity because not everybody is equal. How do you make them realize that not everyone's equal? Because a lot of the time, in my experience with people like that, they do believe that we've reached a point of equality and that there is nothing to pay attention to. Maybe everybody can start arming themselves with facts. If you're going to push for it, maybe arm yourself with a couple of facts that you not necessarily pull up the source in hand, but you can state a fact to them. Because I've found more often than not, if you state fact to somebody and they don't have a fact to state back, it will make them stop and think. Whether or not it changes their mind, I don't know, but fact often makes somebody stop and think, oh, for at least a couple of seconds. And the more often that happens, I think the more likely we are to start getting people to realize that equality is important. Okay. Well... Yeah. Let's take... Since it's been a running theme, let's take the gender pay gap. How would you explain that to someone then? Well, I don't have a fact, so I can't necessarily make a fact statement. But if I was to handle that and somebody was trying to tell me that it wasn't real, I would tell them that I have a close friend that I used to work with at a warehouse job, and there was three men and six women working at this job, all doing the same exact job, and we were told not to discuss pay. And one day we decided to discuss pay. I don't know how the topic came up. And we figured out that the women were getting a whole $1.50 less than the men were for doing the exact same work. So that's sort of like a personal fact that you can state. That's something that I can say, like, hey, I experienced this. I didn't experience having my pay cut because of my gender, but I experienced watching it happen, happening and thinking, wow, that's really screwed up. Yeah, that's a good one. So if you say things like that to somebody, you know, you're doing the exact same work, but somebody's making less just because of their gender or sexuality, there's no argument against that. There's no defense for that. Well, what if they say that you know, in their experience it doesn't exist? No, I'd say that... What if they say that you can't prove that that was just based off gender? Do you leave the conversation? No, I wouldn't necessarily leave the conversation. I would just say I think that that's kind of, sort of, I would say politely that is sort of a closed-minded way of thinking. Yeah. Because you haven't experienced it. Sure. You wouldn't experience it. Yeah. There's nothing for you to experience in that regard. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. And if they don't, if they still don't agree after that, then I would encourage them to do some research on the gender pay gap. And try to, sort of, broaden their horizon and look into different topics than that which they're used to on whatever media they're consuming. Yeah, I think that's a good point, is making yourself uncomfortable. Because that's usually where a lot of truth comes from for anyone about pretty much anything. Mm-hmm. Anyway, that's all the questions I have. Okay. Facebook. Sure.